On Order 1.1–1.22
Latin text: Knöll, CSEL 63 (Latin text: Pius Knöll, ed., Sancti Aureli Augustini opera, sect. I, pars 3, CSEL 63 (Vienna: Tempsky; Leipzig: Freytag, 1922), digitized by Open Greek and Latin (csel-dev, University of Leipzig), CC BY-SA 4.0).English: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), public domain (CC0).
Chapter 1
1.1CSEL 63:121–122
Ordinem rerum, Zenobi, cum sequi ac tenere cuique proprium tum uero uniuersitatis, quo cohercetur hic mundus et regitur, uel uidere uel pandere difficillimum hominibus atque rarissimum est. huc accedit, quod, etiamsi quis haec possit, non illud quoque ualet efficere, ut dignum auditorem tam diuinis obscurisque rebus uel uitae merito uel habitu quodam eruditionis inueniat. nec tamen quicquam est. quod magis auide expetant quaeque optima ingenia magisque audire ac discere studeant, qui scopulos uitae huius et procellas uelut erecto, quantum licet, capite inspiciunt, quam quomodo fiat, ut et deus humana curet et tanta in humanis rebus peruersitas usque quaque diffusa sit, ut non diuinae sed ne seruili quidem cui procurationi, si ei tanta potestas daretur, tribuenda esse uideatur. quam ob rem illud quasi necessarium his, quibus talia curae sunt, credendum dimittitur, aut diuinam prouidentiam non usque in haec ultima et ima pertendi aut certe mala omnia dei uoluntate committi, utrumque impium, sed magis posterius. quamquam enim desertum deo quicquam credere cum imperitissimum tum etiam periculosissimum animo sit, tamen in ipsis hominibus nemo quemquam non potuisse aliquid criminatus est. neglegentiae uero uituperatio multo est quam malitiae crudelitatisque purgatior. itaque uelut conpellitur ratio tenere non inmemor pietatis aut ista terrena non posse a diuinis amministrari aut neglegi atque contemni potius quam ita gubernari, ut omnis de deo sit mitis atque inculpanda conquestio.
To see or to explain the order of things, Zenobius, both the order proper to each thing and especially that of the universe, by which this world is held together and ruled, is very difficult and very rare for men. Besides, even if someone could do this, he cannot also manage to find a hearer worthy of such divine and obscure matters, either by merit of life or by some settled habit of learning. And yet there is nothing that all the best minds seek more eagerly, nothing that those who look upon the reefs and storms of this life with head held as high as they can are more eager to hear and learn, than how it comes about both that God cares for human affairs and that so great a perversity is spread everywhere in human affairs that it seems attributable not to a divine governance but not even to a slave's, if such power were given him. Therefore those who care about such things are left, as if by necessity, to believe one of two things: either that divine providence does not reach down to these last and lowest things, or that all evils are committed by the will of God. Both are impious, but the latter more so. For although to believe that anything is abandoned by God is both most ignorant and most dangerous to the mind, yet among men themselves no one has ever accused another of being unable to do something; and blame for negligence is much more clear of guilt than blame for malice and cruelty. So reason is as it were compelled, not forgetful of piety, to hold either that these earthly things cannot be administered by divine things, or that they are neglected and despised rather than governed in such a way that every complaint against God should be mild and blameless.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine introduces to Zenobius the problem of order: how God can govern the world when so much perversity fills human affairs, a problem that tempts men to deny either providence or God's goodness.
- Zenobius was a friend of Augustine at Milan, to whom the work is dedicated.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR misread et as ei.; OCR slip.; Stray hyphen in the digital text.): hue accedit → huc accedit; ut ei deus humana → ut et deus humana; c-urae → curae.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.1 (CSEL 63:121–122; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-1). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.2CSEL 63:122
Sed quis tam caecus est mente, ut quicquam in mouendis corporibus rationis quod praeter humanam dispositionem ac uoluntatem est, diuinae potentiae moderationique dare dubitet? nisi forte aut casibus tam rata subtilique dimensione uel minutissimorum quorumque animalium membra figurantur aut, quod casu quis negat, possit nisi ratione factum fateri aut uero per uniuersam naturam, quod in singulis quibusque rebus nihil arte humana satagente ordinatum miramur, alienare a secretissimo maiestatis arbitrio ullis nugis uanae opinionis audebimus. at enim hoc ipsum est plenius quaestionum, quod membra pulicis disposita mire atque distincte sunt, cum interea humana uita innumerabilium perturbationum inconstantia uersetur et fluctuet. sed hoc pacto, si quis tam minutum cerneret, ut in uermiculato pauimento nihil ultra unius tessellae modulum acies eius ualeret ambire, uituperaret artificem uelut ordinationis et compositionis ignarum eo, quod uarietatem lapillorum perturbatam putaret, a quo illa emblemata in unius pulchritudinis faciem congruentia simul cerni conlustrarique non possent. nihil enim aliud minus eruditis hominibus accidit, qui uniuersam rerum coaptationem atque conceptum inbecilla mente conplecti et considerare non ualentes, si quid eos offenderit, quia suae cogitationi magnum est, magnam rebus putant inhaerere foeditatem.
But who is so blind in mind as to hesitate to attribute to divine power and governance whatever reason there is in the movement of bodies beyond human arrangement and will? Unless perhaps the limbs of even the tiniest animals are shaped by chance with such fixed and subtle measure; or someone could admit that what he denies was made by chance was made other than by reason; or indeed we shall dare, with some trifles of vain opinion, to remove from the most hidden judgment of the divine majesty what we marvel at throughout the whole of nature as ordered in each single thing without any effort of human art. 'But this itself is the more full of questions,' it may be said, 'that the limbs of a flea are arranged wonderfully and distinctly, while human life meanwhile is tossed and fluctuates with the inconstancy of countless disturbances.' But in this way, if someone saw so narrowly that his gaze could take in no more than the measure of one small tile in a mosaic pavement, he would blame the craftsman as ignorant of order and composition, because he thought the variety of little stones was confused, being unable to see and survey together those inlaid pieces fitting into the face of one beauty. For nothing else happens to less educated men, who, unable to embrace and consider with their weak minds the whole fitting together and design of things, think that if something offends them, because it is great to their thought, a great ugliness clings to things.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine argues that the ordered structure of even the smallest creatures shows divine governance, and that those who see disorder in the world are like a man who sees only one tile of a mosaic.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.2 (CSEL 63:122; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-2). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.3CSEL 63:122–123
Cuius erroris maxima causa est, quod homo sibi ipse est incognitus. qui tamen ut se noscat, magna opus habet consuetudine recedendi a sensibus et animum in se ipsum colligendi atque in se ipso retinendi. quod hi tantum adsecuntur, qui plagas quasdam opinionum, quas uitae cotidianae cursus infligit, aut solitudine inurunt aut liberalibus medicant disciplinis. Ita enim sibi animus redditus, quae sit pulchritudo uniuersitatis, intellegit, quae profecto ab uno cognominata est idcircoque illam uidere non licet animae, quae in multa procedit sectaturque auiditate pauperiem, quam nescit sola segregatione multitudinis posse uitari. multitudinem autem non hominum dico sed omnium, quae sensus attingit. nec mirere, quod eo egestatem patitur magis, quo magis appetit plura conplecti. ut enim in circulo quantumuis amplo unum est medium, quo cuncta conuergunt, quod κέντρον geometrae uocant, et quamuis totius ambitus partes innumerabiliter secari queant, nihil tamen est praeter illud unum, quo cetera pariliter dimetiantur et quod omnibus quasi quodam aequalitatis iure dominetur, hinc uero in quamlibet partem si egredi uelis, eo amittuntur omnia, quo in plurima pergitur, sic animus a se ipse fusus inmensitate quadam diuerberatur et uera mendicitate conteritur, cum eum natura sua cogit ubique unum quaerere et multitudo inuenire non sinit.
The greatest cause of this error is that man is unknown to himself. Yet to know himself he needs a great habit of withdrawing from the senses and of gathering the mind into itself and keeping it within itself. Only those attain this who either cauterize by solitude or heal by the liberal disciplines certain wounds of opinions which the course of daily life inflicts. For the mind, thus restored to itself, understands what the beauty of the universe is, which is surely named from 'one'; and so that beauty cannot be seen by the soul that goes out into many things and with greed pursues poverty, which it does not know can be avoided only by separation from multitude. By multitude I mean not of men but of all things the senses touch. And do not wonder that it suffers want the more, the more it seeks to embrace many things. For as in a circle, however large, there is one middle point to which all things converge, which geometers call the kentron, and although the parts of the whole circumference can be divided innumerably, there is nothing besides that one point by which the rest are measured equally and which rules over all as by a kind of law of equality; but if you wish to go out from there to any part, all is lost the more one proceeds into very many: so the mind, poured out from itself, is beaten about by a kind of immensity and worn down by true beggary, when its nature compels it to seek the one everywhere and multitude does not allow it to find it.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine traces the error to man's ignorance of himself, and argues that the mind must withdraw from the many things of sense to its center, as all points of a circle are measured from its one center.
- Universitas (the universe) is derived from unus (one). Kentron is Greek for the center of a circle.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (Greek word mis-encoded in the digital text (κέντρον).): xsvvoov → κέντρον.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.3 (CSEL 63:122–123; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-3). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.4CSEL 63:123–124
Sed et haec, quae dixi, qualia sint et quae causa extet erroris animarum quoque modo et in unum congruant atque perfecta sint cuncta et tamen peccata fugienda sint, assequeris profecto, mi Zenobi — sic enim mihi notum est ingenium tuum et pulchritudinis omnimodae amator animus sine libidinis inmoderatione atque sordibus, quod signum in te futurae sapientiae perniciosis cupiditatibus diuino iure praescribit, ne tuam causam deseras falsis uoluptatibus inlectus, qua praeuaricatione nihil turpius et periculosius inueniri potest — assequeris ergo ista, mihi crede, cum eruditioni operam dederis, qua purgatur et excolitur animus nullo modo ante idoneus, cui diuina semina committantur. quod totum cuius modi sit et quem flagitet ordinem quidue studiosis et bonis ratio promittat qualemque uitam nos uiuamus, carissimi tui, et quem fructum de liberali otio carpamus, hi te libri satis, ut opinor, edocebunt nomine tuo nobis quam nostra elaboratione dulciores, praesertim si te in ipsum ordinem, de quo ad te scribo, meliora eligens inserere atque coaptare uolueris.
But what these things I have said are, what cause there is of the error of souls, and how all things fit together into one and are perfect and yet sins are to be avoided, you will surely grasp, my Zenobius. For I know your mind, and your soul that loves beauty of every kind without the excess and filth of lust; this, as a sign of future wisdom in you, by divine right forbids harmful desires, so that you may not desert your cause, lured by false pleasures; nothing more shameful or dangerous than such a betrayal can be found. You will grasp these things, then, believe me, when you have devoted yourself to learning, by which the mind is purified and cultivated, before which it is in no way fit to have divine seeds entrusted to it. What all this is like, what order it demands, what reason promises to the studious and good, what sort of life we, your dearest friends, live, and what fruit we gather from liberal leisure: these books will teach you sufficiently, I think, books dearer to us for your name than for our labor; especially if you, choosing the better things, will place and fit yourself into that very order about which I write to you.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine assures Zenobius that through liberal learning he will come to understand how all things form one ordered whole while sin is still to be avoided, and commends the books to him.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.4 (CSEL 63:123–124; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-4). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.5CSEL 63:124
Nam cum stomachi dolor scholam me deserere coegisset, qui iam, ut scis, etiam sine ulla tali necessitate in philosophiam confugere moliebar, statim me contuli ad uillam familiarissimi nostri Uerecundi. quid dicam eo libente? nosti optime hominis cum in omnes tum uero in nos beniuolentiam singularem. ibi disserebamus inter nos, quaecumque uidebantur utilia adhibito sane stilo, quo cuncta exciperentur, quod uidebam conducere ualetudini meae. cum enim nonnulla loquendi cura detinerer, nulla inter disputandum inrepebat immoderata contentio; simul etiam, ut, si quid nostrum litteris mandare placuisset, nec aliter dicendi necessitas nec labor recordationis esset. agebant autem ista mecum Alypius et Nauigius, frater meus, et Licentius repente admirabiliter poeticae deditus; Trygetium item nobis militia reddiderat, qui tamquam ueteranus adamauit historiam; etiam in libris nonnihil habebamus.
For when a pain in the stomach had compelled me to leave the school, although, as you know, I was already trying to take refuge in philosophy even without any such necessity, I at once went to the country house of our very close friend Verecundus. Why should I say that he was glad of it? You know very well the man's singular goodwill toward everyone, and especially toward us. There we discussed among ourselves whatever seemed useful, employing a stenographer, indeed, to take everything down, which I saw was good for my health. For since I was held back by some care in speaking, no immoderate contention crept in during the discussion; and also, if we chose to commit anything of ours to writing, there was no need to say it differently and no labor of recollection. Those who took part in these things with me were Alypius and my brother Navigius, and Licentius, who had suddenly and wonderfully given himself to poetry; military service had also given Trygetius back to us, who, like a veteran, had fallen in love with history; and we also had some books.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine recounts how ill health led him to Verecundus's country house at Cassiciacum, where he held recorded discussions with Alypius, Navigius, Licentius, and Trygetius.
- The country house of Verecundus was at Cassiciacum near Milan. Augustine elsewhere calls the ailment a pain in the chest (Against the Academics 1.3).
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.5 (CSEL 63:124; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-5). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.6CSEL 63:124–125
Sed nocte quadam, cum euigilassem de more mecumque ipse tacitus agitarem, quae in mentem nescio unde ueniebant — nam id mihi amore inueniendi ueri iam in consuetudinem uerterat, ut aut primam, si tales curae inerant, aut certe ultimam, dimidiam tamen fere noctis partem peruigil quodcumque cogitarem, nec me patiebar adulescentium lucubrationibus a me ipso auocari, quia et illi per totum diem tantum agebant, ut nimium mihi uideretur, si aliquid etiam noctium in studiorum laborem usurparent, et id a me ipsi quoque praeceptum habebant, ut aliquid et praeter codices secum agerent et sese habitare consuefacerent animum — ergo, ut dixi, uigilabam, cum ecce aquae sonus pone balneas, quae praeterfluebat, eduxit me in aures et animaduersus est solito adtentius. mirum admodum mihi uidebatur, quod nunc clarius nunc pressius eadem aqua strepebat silicibus inruens. coepi a me quaerere, quaenam causa esset. fateor, nihil occurrebat, cum Licentius lecto suo inportunos percusso iuxta ligno sorices terruit seseque uigilantem hoc modo indicauit. cui ego: Animaduertis, inquam, Licenti — nam uideo tibi Musam tuam lumen ad lucubrandum accendisse — quomodo canalis iste inconstanter sonet? — Iam, inquit, mihi hoc non est nouum. nam desiderio serenitatis cum expergefactus aliquando aurem admouissem, ne imber ingrueret, hoc agebat aqua ista, quod nunc. — Approbauit Trygetius. nam et ipse in eodem conclaui lecto suo cubans uigilabat nobis nescientibus — erant enim tenebrae — quod in Italia etiam pecuniosis prope necesse est.
But one night, when I had woken as usual and was silently turning over by myself what came into my mind from I know not where (for through love of finding the truth it had become my habit to lie awake, thinking about whatever it might be, either the first or certainly the last part of the night, about half of it, if such concerns were present; and I did not allow myself to be called away from myself by the young men's night studies, because they also worked so much through the whole day that it seemed to me too much if they took some of the night as well for the labor of study; and they also had this rule from me, that they should do something with themselves apart from books and accustom their minds to dwell with themselves): so, as I said, I was awake, when behold, the sound of water flowing past behind the baths drew me to listen and was noticed more attentively than usual. It seemed to me very strange that the same water, rushing over the stones, now murmured more clearly, now more softly. I began to ask myself what the cause might be. I confess nothing occurred to me, when Licentius, striking a piece of wood beside his bed, frightened off some troublesome mice and in this way showed that he was awake. I said to him: "Licentius, have you noticed (for I see your Muse has lit you a lamp for night work) how irregularly that channel sounds?" "This is not new to me," he said. "For once, when I had woken longing for fair weather and put my ear to it, to hear whether rain was coming on, that water was doing what it is doing now." Trygetius agreed. For he too, lying in his bed in the same room, was awake without our knowing it; for it was dark, which in Italy is almost necessary even for the wealthy.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine tells how, lying awake one night, he noticed the irregular sound of the water channel by the baths and found that Licentius and Trygetius were also awake.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR garbled praeterfluebat.; OCR slip.): a mo ipso → a me ipso; quae praeterfha-bilt → quae praeterfluebat.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.6 (CSEL 63:124–125; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-6). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.7CSEL 63:125–126
Ergo ubi uidi scholam nostram, quantacumque aderat — nam et Alypius et Nauigius in urbem ierant — etiam illis horis non sopitam, et me cursus ille aquarum aliquid de se dicere admonebat: Quidnam nobis, inquam, uidetur esse causae, quod sic alternat hic sonus? non enim quemquam putamus his horis uel transitu uel re aliqua lauanda totiens illum meatum interpellare. — Quid putas, inquit Licentius, nisi alicubi folia cuiuscemodi, quae autumno perpetua copioseque decidunt, angustiis canalis intertrusa uinci aliquando atque cedere, ubi autem unda, quae urgebat, pertransierit, rursum colligi atque stipari aut aliquid aliud uario casu foliorum natantium fieri, quod ad illum fluxum nunc refrenandum nunc emittendum similiter ualeat? — Uisum est mihi probabile aliud non habenti confessusque sum laudans ingenium eius nihil me inuenisse, cum diu quaesissem, cur ita esset.
So when I saw that our school, as much of it as was present (for Alypius and Navigius had gone to the city), was not asleep even at those hours, and that the course of the waters was prompting me to say something about it, I said: "What do we think is the cause of this sound alternating so? For we do not suppose that anyone at these hours is interrupting that flow so often by crossing it or by washing something." "What do you think," said Licentius, "except that somewhere leaves of some kind, which in autumn fall continually and in great numbers, are pushed into the narrows of the channel and are sometimes overcome and give way, but when the water that was pressing has passed through, gather again and pack together; or something else happens through the varied fall of floating leaves that likewise serves now to hold back, now to release that flow?" It seemed probable to me, having nothing else, and, praising his ingenuity, I confessed that I had found nothing, though I had long sought why it was so.
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius explains the irregular sound by leaves alternately clogging and releasing the channel, and Augustine accepts the explanation as probable.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.7 (CSEL 63:125–126; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-7). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.8CSEL 63:126–127
Tum interposito modico silentio: Merito, inquam, tu nihil mirabaris et apud Calliopam te intus tenebas. — Merito, inquit ille, sed modo plane dedisti mihi magnum mirari. — Quidnam hoc est? inquam. — Quod tu, inquit, ista miratus es. — Unde enim solet, inquam, oboriri admiratio aut quae huius uitii mater est nisi res insolita praeter manifestum causarum ordinem? - Et ille: Praeter manifestum inquit, accipio; nam praeter ordinem nihil mihi fieri uidetur. — Hic ego erectior spe alacriore, quam soleo esse, cum aliquid ab his requiro, quod rem tantam et tam subito heri paene ad ista conuersus adulescentis animus concepisset nulla umquam de his rebus inter nos antea quaestione agitata: Bene, inquam, bene; sed prorsus bene multum sensisti, multum ausus es. hoc, mihi crede, longo interuallo transcendit Heliconem, ad cuius uerticem tamquam ad caelum peruenire conaris. sed peruellem adesses huic sententiae; nam eam labefactare temptabo. — Sine, inquit, modo me mihi, quaeso te; nam ualde in aliud intendi animum. — Hic ego nonnihil metuens, ne studio poeticae penitus prouolutus a philosophia longe raperetur: Inritor, inquam, abs te uersus istos tuos omni metrorum genere cantando et ululando insectari, qui inter te atque ueritatem inmaniorem murum quam inter amantes tuos conantur erigere; nam in se illi uel inolita rimula respirabant. Pyramum enim ille tum canere instituerat.
Then, after a short silence, I said: "Rightly you wondered at nothing and kept yourself indoors with Calliope." "Rightly," he said, "but now you have plainly given me something great to wonder at." "What is that?" I said. "That you," he said, "wondered at these things." "For where does wonder usually arise," I said, "or what is the mother of this fault, but a thing unusual and outside the evident order of causes?" And he said: "Outside the evident order, I accept; for nothing seems to me to happen outside order." Here I was roused with a livelier hope than I usually have when I ask something of them, because a young man's mind, turned to these things almost suddenly only yesterday, had conceived so great a thing, when no question about these matters had ever been discussed between us before. "Good," I said, "good; indeed very good; you have thought much, you have dared much. This, believe me, goes far beyond Helicon, to whose summit you are trying to reach as if to heaven. But I would very much like you to stand by this statement; for I will try to shake it." "Leave me to myself for now, please," he said; "for I have turned my mind hard to something else." Here, fearing somewhat that, carried away completely by his zeal for poetry, he might be swept far from philosophy, I said: "I am provoked to attack those verses of yours, which you are singing and howling in every kind of meter, and which are trying to raise between you and the truth a more monstrous wall than the one between your lovers; for they at least breathed through an ingrained little crack." For he had then begun to sing of Pyramus.
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius declares that nothing happens outside order, and Augustine, delighted, challenges him to defend the claim and urges him away from his poem on Pyramus and Thisbe.
- Calliope is the Muse of epic poetry. Pyramus and Thisbe, lovers separated by a wall with a crack, are told by Ovid, Metamorphoses 4.55–166.
Extrabiblical texts: Ovid, Metam. 4.55–166 (Ovid; allusion)
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.8 (CSEL 63:126–127; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-8). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.9CSEL 63:127
Quod cum seueriore quam putabat uoce dixissem, subticuit aliquantum. et ego iam reliqueram coeptam et ad me redieram, ne frustra occupare praeoccupatum atque inepte uellem; tum ille: Egomet meo indicio quasi sorex, inquit, non dictum est commodius apud Terentium quam nunc dici a me de me potest; sed sane illud ultimum fortasse in contrarium uertetur; quod enim ait ille: hodie perii, ego forte hodie inueniar. nam si non contemnitis, quod superstitiosi solent, etiam de muribus augurari, si ego illum murem uel soricem, qui me tibi uigilantem detulit, strepitu meo commonui, si quid sapit, redire in cubile suum secumque conquiescere, cur non ego ipse isto strepitu uocis tuae commonear philosophari potius quam cantare? nam illa est, ut tibi cotidie probanti iam coepi credere, uera et inconcussa nostra habitatio. quare, si tibi molestum non est atque id fieri debere arbitraris, roga quod uis; defendam, quantum possum, ordinem rerum nihilque praeter ordinem fieri posse asseram. tantum enim eum animo imbibi atque hausi, ut, etiamsi me quisquam in hac disputatione superarit, etiam hoc nulli temeritati sed rerum ordini tribuam. neque enim res ipsa, sed Licentius superabitur.
When I had said this in a sterner voice than he expected, he fell silent for a while. And I had already left the matter I had begun and returned to myself, not wanting vainly and foolishly to occupy one already occupied; then he said: "'I, like a mouse, by my own betrayal': nothing could be said more aptly in Terence than can now be said by me about myself. But perhaps that last part will be turned to the opposite; for what he says, 'Today I am done for,' perhaps today I shall be found. For if you do not despise what superstitious people usually do, taking omens even from mice, if by my noise I warned that mouse or rat which betrayed me to you as awake to return to its hole and keep quiet, if it has any sense, why should I not myself be warned by that noise of your voice to do philosophy rather than sing? For that is, as I have begun to believe while you prove it daily, our true and unshaken dwelling. So, if it is not troublesome to you and you think it ought to be done, ask what you will; I will defend the order of things as best I can, and assert that nothing can happen outside order. For I have so imbibed and drunk it in with my mind that even if someone overcomes me in this discussion, I will attribute even that not to any rashness but to the order of things. For not the thing itself, but Licentius, will be overcome."
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius, quoting Terence, takes Augustine's rebuke as a sign to turn to philosophy and undertakes to defend the claim that nothing happens outside order.
- The quotation is Terence, The Eunuch 1024.
Extrabiblical texts: Terence, Eun. 1024 (Terence; quotation)
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.9 (CSEL 63:127; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-9). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.10CSEL 63:127–128
Ego rursum gaudens eis me restitui. tum Trygetio: Quid, inquam, tibi uidetur? — Faueo quidem, inquit, ordini plurimum, sed incertus sum tamen et rem tantam diligentissime discuti cupio. - Fauorem, inquam, tuum illa ergo pars habeat; nam quod incertus es, etiam cum Licentio ac me ipso tibi puto esse commune. — Prorsus, ait Licentius, ego huius sententiae certus sum. quid enim dubitem parietem, cuius mentionem fecisti, antequam plane se erexit, diruere? non enim uere poetica tantum me auertere a philosophia potest, quantum inueniendi ueri diffidentia. — Tum Trygetius gaudentibus uerbis: Habemus, inquit, iam. quod plus est, Licentium non Academicum. eos enim ille studiosissime defendere solebat. — Haec modo, inquit, omitte quaeso, ne me hoc uafrum quiddam et captatorium a nescio qua diuina re, quae mihi se ostentare coepit et cui me inhiantem suspendo, detorqueat atque disrumpat. — Hic ego multo uberius cernens abundare laetitias meas, quam uel optare aliquando ausus sum, uersum Istum gestiens effudi: sic pater ille deus faciat! perducet enim ipse, si sequimur, quo nos ire iubet atque ubi ponere sedem, qui dat modo augurium nostrisque inlabitur animis. nec enim altus Apollo est, qui in speluncis in montibus in nemoribus nidore turis pecudumque calamitate concitatus inplet insanos, sed alius profecto est, alius ille altus ueridicus atque ipsa — quid enim uerbis ambiam? — ueritas, cuius uates sunt, quicumque possunt esse sapientes. ergo adgrediemur, Licenti; freti pietate cultores uestigiis nostris ignem perniciosum fumosarum cupiditatum opprimamus.
Rejoicing, I gave myself back to them. Then I said to Trygetius: "What do you think?" "I favor order very much," he said, "but still I am uncertain and want so great a matter to be discussed most carefully." "Then let that side have your favor," I said; "for your uncertainty I think you share with Licentius and with me." "Not at all," said Licentius; "I am certain of this opinion. For why should I hesitate to pull down the wall you mentioned before it has fully risen? For truly poetry cannot turn me away from philosophy as much as distrust of finding the truth can." Then Trygetius said with joyful words: "We now have, what is more, a Licentius who is not an Academic. For he used to defend them most zealously." "Leave these things now, please," he said, "lest it twist me away and break me off from some divine thing, I know not what, which has begun to show itself to me, and on which I hang gaping." Here, seeing my joys overflowing far more richly than I had ever dared even to wish, I eagerly poured out this verse: "So may that Father God bring it about!" For he himself, if we follow, will lead us where he bids us go and where to set our dwelling, he who now gives an omen and glides into our minds. For it is not the 'lofty Apollo' who in caves, on mountains, in groves, stirred up by the smell of incense and the slaughter of cattle, fills madmen; it is surely another, that other lofty one, truthful, and (why should I go around with words?) truth itself, whose prophets are all who can be wise. So let us set to work, Licentius; relying on piety, as worshipers, let us stamp out with our feet the deadly fire of smoky desires.
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius rejoices that he is no longer an Academic and senses something divine, and Augustine, quoting Vergil, prays that God, who is truth itself rather than the oracular Apollo, will lead them.
- "So may that Father God bring it about" adapts Vergil, Aeneid 10.875 (where the next words are "so lofty Apollo"); the following lines echo Aeneid 3.88–89 and 11.785–788.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR garbled philosophia.; OCR garbled sapientes.; OCR misread ne me.; OCR misread u as n and inserted a hyphen.; OCR slip.): a pliilosophi;i → a philosophia; 110 mo hoc → ne me hoc; diuina ro, → diuina re,; mihi so ostentare → mihi se ostentare; cui mo inhiantem → cui me inhiantem; ang-urium → augurium; sapirntl s → sapientes.
Extrabiblical texts: Virgil, Aen. 10.875 (Virgil; quotation); Virgil, Aen. 3.88–89 (Virgil; allusion); Virgil, Aen. 11.785–788 (Virgil; allusion)
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.10 (CSEL 63:127–128; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-10). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.11CSEL 63:128–129
Iam, inquit, interroga, oro te, si possim hoc tantum nescio quid explicare et uerbis et meis. — Hoc ipsum, inquam, mihi responde, primo unde tibi uideatur aqua ista non temere sic sed ordine influere. nam quod ligneolis canalibus superlabitur et ducitur usque in usus nostros, potest ad ordinem pertinere. factum est enim ab hominibus ratione utentibus, ut uno eius itinere simul et biberent et lauarent, et pro locorum oportunitatibus consequens erat, ut ita fieret, quod uero illa, ut dicis, folia sic inciderunt, ut hoc, quod ammirati sumus, eueniret, quo tandem rerum ordine ac non casu potius factum putabimus? - Quasi uero, inquit ille, aliter, atque ceciderunt, debuisse aut potuisse cadere cuiquam uideri potest serenissime intuenti nihil posse fieri sine causa. quid? iam uis persequar situs arborum atque ramorum Ipsumque pondus, quantum natura foliis imposuit? quid? aeris uel mobilitatem, qua uolitant, uel mollitiam, qua descendunt, uariosque lapsus pro affectione caeli pro onere pro figuris suis ceterisque innumerabilibus atque obscurioribus causis quid me attinet quaerere? latent ista sensus nostros, penitus latent; illud tamen, quod adgressae quaestioni satis est, nescio quo modo animum non latet, nihil fieri sine causa. potest enim odiosus percontator pergere quaerere: quae causa erat, ut ibi arbores ponerentur? respondebo secutos esse homines uber terrae. quid, si fructuosae arbores non sunt ac temere natae sunt? et hic respondebo nos parum uidere; nam temerariam quae illas genuit nequaquam esse naturam. quid plura? aut aliquid sine causa fieri docear aut nihil fieri nisi certo causarum ordine credite.
"Now ask, I beg you," he said, "if I can explain this great thing, whatever it is, and in my own words too." "Answer me this first," I said: "from what does it seem to you that this water flows in not at random but by order? For that it glides over little wooden channels and is led all the way to our use can pertain to order. For it was done by men using reason, so that by one course of it they might both drink and bathe, and it followed from the advantages of the place that it should be so. But that those leaves, as you say, fell so that what we wondered at came about: by what order of things, then, and not rather by chance, shall we think this was done?" "As if," he said, "it could seem to anyone who looks most clearly that nothing can happen without a cause, that they ought to have fallen, or could have fallen, otherwise than they fell! What? Do you want me now to go through the positions of the trees and the branches, and the very weight that nature has put on the leaves? What? Why should I seek the mobility of the air, by which they fly about, or the softness by which they descend, and their various falls according to the state of the sky, their weight, their shapes, and countless other more obscure causes? These are hidden from our senses, deeply hidden; yet that which is enough for the question we have taken up is somehow not hidden from the mind: that nothing happens without a cause. For a tiresome questioner may go on to ask: 'What was the cause for trees to be planted there?' I will answer that men followed the richness of the soil. 'What if they are not fruit trees and sprang up at random?' Here too I will answer that we see too little; for the nature that produced them is by no means random. What more? Either let me be taught that something happens without a cause, or believe that nothing happens except by a fixed order of causes."
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius argues that the fall of the leaves, like everything else, had causes, many hidden from the senses, and that nothing happens without a cause.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR slip.): oro to, → oro te,.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.11 (CSEL 63:128–129; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-11). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.12CSEL 63:129–130
Cui ego: Licet, inquam, me odiosum percontatorem uoces — uix enim possum non esse, qui expugnaui, ne cum Pyramo et Thisbe conloquereris — pergam tamen quaerere abs te. natura ista, quam uis uideri ordinatam, cui bono - ut de ceteris rebus innumerabilibus taceam- istas ipsas arbores, quae fructus non afferunt, procreauit? — At illo cogitante, quid diceret, ait Trygetius: Numquidnam usus arbustorum in solis fructibus praebetur hominibus? quanta sunt alia, quae umbra, lignis, quamuis postremo, quae ipsis frondibus seu foliis fiant? — Noli obsecro, inquit ille, interrogationibus eius haec reddere. innumerabilia sunt enim, quae proferri possunt, ex quibus nulla est hominibus utilitas aut certe ita latet uel inbecilla est, ut ab hominibus, praesertim nobis, erui defendiue non possit. ipse potius nos doceat, quomodo aliquid fiat, quod non causa praecesserit. — Post, inquam, ista uidebimus. non enim iam me necesse est esse doctorem, cum tu, qui iam tantae rei te certum esse professus es, adhuc me nihil docueris nimium discere cupientem et propter hoc solum dies noctesque uigilantem.
I said to him: "Though you may call me a tiresome questioner (for I can hardly not be one, having fought to keep you from conversing with Pyramus and Thisbe), I will still go on to ask you. For what good (to say nothing of countless other things) did that nature, which you want to seem ordered, produce these very trees that bear no fruit?" While Licentius was thinking what to say, Trygetius said: "Is the use of trees given to men only in fruits? How many other uses there are, from shade, from wood, and finally from the very branches or leaves!" "Please do not give these answers to his questions," said Licentius. "For countless things can be brought forward from which men have no use, or it is so hidden or so slight that it cannot be dug out or defended by men, especially by us. Let him rather teach us how something happens which no cause has preceded." "We will see about that later," I said. "For it is not now necessary for me to be the teacher, since you, who have professed yourself certain of so great a thing, have still taught me nothing, though I am very eager to learn and lie awake days and nights for this alone."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine asks what purpose barren trees serve, Trygetius lists their uses, and Licentius insists that the question is rather how anything could happen without a cause.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.12 (CSEL 63:129–130; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-12). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.13CSEL 63:130
Quo me mittis? inquit; an quia te leuius sequor quam illa folia uentos, quibus in profluentem iaciuntur, ut eis cadere parum sit, nisi etiam trahantur? nam quid aliud erit, cum Licentius et Augustinum et ea quae sunt in media philosophia docet? — Noli obsecro, inquam, aut te tantum abicere aut me extollere. nam et ego in philosophia puer sum et non nimis curo, cum interrogo, per quem mihi ille respondeat, qui me cotidie querulum accipit, cuius quidem credo quandoque uatem futurum; neque hoc quandoque forsitan longum est. sed tamen alii quoque multum sepositi ab huius modi studiis docere aliquid possunt, cum disserentium societati quasi uinculis interrogationum coartantur. idem autem aliquid non est nihil. an non uides — tuo enim simili utar libentius — illa ipsa folia, quae feruntur uentis, quae undis innatant, resistere aliquantum praecipitanti se flumini et de rerum ordine homines commonere, si tamen hoc, quod abs te defenditur, uerum est?
"Where are you sending me?" he said. "Is it because I follow you more lightly than those leaves follow the winds by which they are thrown into the stream, so that it is not enough for them to fall unless they are also carried along? For what else will it be when Licentius teaches Augustine, and things that are in the middle of philosophy?" "Please," I said, "do not either cast yourself down so much or raise me up. For I too am a boy in philosophy, and when I ask questions I do not care much through whom he answers me, who daily receives me complaining, of whom I believe you will one day be a prophet; and this 'one day' is perhaps not far off. But others too, far removed from studies of this kind, can teach something when they are bound to the company of the disputants as by the chains of questions. And that something is not nothing. Or do you not see (I will gladly use your own comparison) that those very leaves which are carried by the winds and float on the waves resist somewhat the rushing river and remind men of the order of things, if indeed what you defend is true?"
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius protests at having to teach Augustine, who replies that he too is a beginner in philosophy and that the leaves themselves resisting the stream remind men of order.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (Stray digits in the digital text.): quandoque 15 forsitan → quandoque forsitan.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.13 (CSEL 63:130; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-13). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.14CSEL 63:130–131
Hic ille lecto etiam exiliens prae laetitia: Quis neget, deus magne, inquit, te cuncta ordine administrare? quam se omnia tenent! quam ratis successionibus in nodos suos urgentur! quanta et quam multa facta sunt, ut haec loqueremur! quanta fiunt, ut te inueniamus! unde enim hoc ipsum nisi ex rerum ordine manat et ducitur, quod euigilauimus, quod illum sonum aduertisti, quod quaesisti tecum causam, quod tu causam tantillae rei non inuenisti? sorex etiam prodit, ut ego uigilans prodar. postremo tuus etiam ipse sermo te fortasse id non agente — non enim cuiquam in potestate est, quid ueniat in mentem — sic nescio quo modo circumagitur, ut me ipse doceat, quid tibi debeam respondere. namque oro te, si haec, quae a nobis dicta sunt, litteris, ut instituisti, mandata peruagentur paulo latius ad hominum famam, nonne ita res magna uidetur, ut de illa consultus aliqui uates magnus aut Chaldeus respondere debuerit, multo antequam euenit? quodsi respondisset, ita diuinus diceretur, ita efferretur laudibus omnium, ut tamen ex eo nemo quaereret, cur folium ex arbore ceciderit aut utrum mus oberrans iacenti homini molestus fuerit. numquidnam enim talia futura quisquam illorum aut per se dixit aliquando aut a consultore coactus est dicere? atqui si futurum quendam librum non ignobilem diceret et id necessario euenturum uideret — non enim posset aliter diuinare — profecto quidquid uolutatio foliorum in agro, quidquid uilissima bestiola in domo facit, tam sunt in rerum ordine necessaria quam illae litterae. his enim uerbis fiunt, quae sine illis praecedentibus uilissimis rebus nec in mentem uenire possent nec ore procedere posterisque mandari. quare iam, rogo, nemo ex me quaerat, cur quidque fiat. satis est nihil fieri, nihil gigni, quod non aliqua causa genuerit ac mouerit.
Here Licentius, even leaping from his bed for joy, said: "Who would deny, great God, that you administer all things by order? How all things hold together! How they are pressed into their knots by fixed successions! How great and how many things have happened so that we should be saying this! How great things happen so that we may find you! For from where does this itself flow and derive, if not from the order of things: that we woke up, that you noticed that sound, that you sought its cause with yourself, that you did not find the cause of so small a thing? A mouse even appears so that I, awake, may be revealed. Finally, even your own speech, perhaps without your intending it (for no one has it in his power what comes into his mind), is somehow turned around so as to teach me what I should answer you. For I ask you: if these things that we have said are committed to writing, as you have arranged, and spread a little more widely to men's notice, does it not seem so great a matter that some great prophet or Chaldean, consulted about it, ought to have answered long before it happened? And if he had answered, he would be called so divine, so exalted by everyone's praise, that still no one would ask him why a leaf fell from a tree, or whether a wandering mouse troubled a man lying down. For did any of them ever either say such future things of himself or was he compelled by a client to say them? Yet if he foretold that a certain not ignoble book would come to be, and saw that it would necessarily happen (for he could not divine otherwise), surely whatever the tumbling of leaves in the field and whatever the meanest little animal in the house does are as necessary in the order of things as that writing. For it is made of these words, which, without those meanest things preceding, could neither come into the mind nor come forth from the mouth nor be handed down to posterity. So now, I ask, let no one ask me why each thing happens. It is enough that nothing happens, nothing is born, which some cause has not begotten and moved."
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius exclaims that God orders all things, since even the leaves, the mouse, and their own waking were necessary links in the chain that produced their conversation and the book that records it.
- "Chaldean" means an astrologer.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.14 (CSEL 63:130–131; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-14). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.15CSEL 63:131–132
Apparet te, inquam, nescire, adulescens, quam multa et a qualibus uiris contra diuinationem dicta sint. sed responde nunc, non utrum fiat aliquid sine causa — nam id iam uideo te nolle respondere — sed ordo iste susceptus tuus bonumne quicquam an malum tibi esse uideatur. — Et ille submorans: Non, inquit, sic rogasti, ut unum de duobus queam respondere. uideo hic enim quandam medietatem. nam ordo mihi nec bonum nec malum uidetur. — Quid saltem censes, inquam, ordini esse contrarium? — Nihil, ait ille; nam quomodo esse quicquam contrarium potest ei rei, quae totum occupauit, totum obtinuit? quod enim erit ordini contrarium, necesse erit esse praeter ordinem; nihil autem esse praeter ordinem uideo: nihil igitur ordini oportet putare esse contrarium. — Ergone, ait Trygetius, contrarius ordini error non est? — Nullo modo, inquit; nam neminem uideo errare sine causa; causarum autem series ordine includitur et error ipse non solum gignitur causa sed etiam gignit aliquid, cuius causa fit. quam ob rem quo extra ordinem non est, eo non potest ordini esse contrarius.
"It appears, young man," I said, "that you do not know how many things have been said against divination, and by what sort of men. But answer now, not whether anything happens without a cause (for I see you do not want to answer that now), but whether that order you have undertaken to defend seems to you something good or something evil." And he, hesitating a little, said: "You have not asked in such a way that I can answer one of the two. For I see a kind of middle here. Order seems to me neither good nor evil." "What at least do you think," I said, "is contrary to order?" "Nothing," he said; "for how can anything be contrary to that which has occupied the whole, held the whole? For what is contrary to order must necessarily be outside order; but I see nothing outside order; so one must think nothing is contrary to order." "Then is error not contrary to order?" said Trygetius. "Not at all," he said; "for I see no one err without a cause; but the series of causes is included in order, and error itself is not only begotten by a cause but also begets something of which it is the cause. Therefore, inasmuch as it is not outside order, it cannot be contrary to order."
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius argues that order is neither good nor evil and that nothing, not even error, is contrary to it, since everything has causes within order.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR split cuius.): cui e causa fit → cuius causa fit.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.15 (CSEL 63:131–132; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-15). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.16CSEL 63:132
Et cum tacuisset Trygetius egoque me ipsum non caperem gaudio, quod uidebam adulescentem, carissimi amici filium, etiam meum fieri, nec solum, uerum in amicum quoque iam mihi surgere atque grandescere et, cuius studium uel in mediocres litteras desperaueram, quasi respecta possessione sua toto impetu in mediam uenire philosophiam — quod dum tacitus miror et exaestuo in gratulatione, subito ille quasi mente quadam correptus exclamat: o si possem dicere quod uolo! rogo, ubiubi estis, uerba, succurrite. et bona et mala in ordine sunt. credite, si uultis; nam quomodo id explicem nescio.
And when Trygetius had fallen silent and I could not contain myself for joy, because I saw that the young man, son of a very dear friend, was becoming mine too, and not only that but was already rising and growing into a friend for me, and that he, of whose zeal even for ordinary letters I had despaired, was coming with full force into the middle of philosophy as if he had recognized his own possession: while I was silently marveling at this and glowing with thanksgiving, suddenly he, as if seized by some inspiration, cried out: "O, if only I could say what I want! Words, wherever you are, I beg you, come to my aid. Both good and evil things are within order. Believe it, if you will; for how to explain it I do not know."
Notes and citation
Summary: As Augustine rejoices at Licentius's turn to philosophy, Licentius exclaims that both good and evil are within order.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (Stray letter in the digital text.): exclamat:s o si possem → exclamat: o si possem.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.16 (CSEL 63:132; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-16). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.17CSEL 63:132–133
Ego mirabar et tacebam. Trygetius autem ubi uidit hominem paululum quasi digesta ebrietate affabilem factum redditumque conloquio: Absurdum, inquit, mihi uidetur, Licenti, et plane alienum a ueritate quod dicis; sed quaeso patiare me paululum nec proturbes clamitando. —Dic quod uis, ait ille; non enim metuo, ne me auferas ab eo, quod uideo ac paene teneo. — Utinam, inquit, ab eo quem defendis ordine deuius non sis! non tanta in deum feraris, ut mitius loquar, incuria. quid enim potuit dici magis impium quam etiam mala ordine contineri? certe enim deus amat ordinem. —Uero amat, ait ille; ab ipso manat, cum ipso est, et si quid potest de re tantum alta conuenientius dici, cogita quaeso ipse tecum. nec enim sum idoneus, qui te ista nunc doceam. — Quid cogitem? inquit Trygetius; accipio prorsus quod dicis satisque mihi est in eo, quod intellego. certe enim et mala dixisti ordine contineri et ipsum ordinem manare a summo deo atque ab eo diligi. ex quo sequitur, ut et mala sint a summo deo et mala deus diligat.
I marveled and kept silent. But Trygetius, when he saw that the man, his intoxication as it were somewhat slept off, had become approachable and been restored to conversation, said: "What you say seems to me absurd, Licentius, and plainly foreign to the truth; but please bear with me a little and do not drive me off by shouting." "Say what you like," he said; "for I do not fear that you will take me away from what I see and almost hold." "I wish," said Trygetius, "that you were not straying from that order which you defend, and were not carried away into so great a carelessness, to put it mildly, toward God. For what could be said more impious than that even evils are contained in order? For certainly God loves order." "Indeed he loves it," said Licentius; "it flows from him, it is with him; and if anything can be said more fittingly about so lofty a matter, think it over with yourself, please. For I am not fit to teach you these things now." "What should I think over?" said Trygetius. "I accept exactly what you say, and what I understand is enough for me. For you certainly said both that evils are contained in order and that order itself flows from the highest God and is loved by him. From this it follows both that evils are from the highest God and that God loves evils."
Notes and citation
Summary: Trygetius objects that if evils are within order and order comes from God and is loved by him, then evils come from God and God loves them.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.17 (CSEL 63:132–133; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-17). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.18CSEL 63:133
In qua conclusione timui Licentio. at ille ingemescens difficultate uerborum nec omnino quaerens, quid responderet, sed quem ad modum quod respondendum erat promeret: Non diligit deus mala, inquit, nec ob aliud, nisi quia ordinis non est, ut et deus mala diligat; et ordinem ideo multum diligit, quia per eum non diligit mala. at uero ipsa mala qui possunt non esse in ordine, cum deus illa non diligat? nam iste ipse est malorum ordo, ut non diligantur a deo. an paruus rerum ordo tibi uidetur, ut et bona deus diligat et non diligat mala? ita nec praeter ordinem sunt mala, quae non diligit deus, et ipsum tamen ordinem diligit; hoc ipsum enim diligit, diligere bona et non diligere mala, quod est magni ordinis et diuinae dispositionis. qui ordo atque dispositio quia uniuersitatis congruentiam ipsa distinctione custodit, fit, ut mala etiam esse necesse sit. ita quasi ex antithetis quodam modo, quod nobis etiam in oratione iucundum est, ex contrariis, omnium simul rerum pulchritudo figuratur.
At this conclusion I feared for Licentius. But he, groaning at the difficulty of finding words, and not at all seeking what to answer but how to bring out what was to be answered, said: "God does not love evils, and for no other reason than that it is not of order for God to love evils; and he loves order greatly for this reason, that through it he does not love evils. But how can evils themselves not be in order, since God does not love them? For this itself is the order of evils, that they are not loved by God. Or does it seem to you a small order of things that God both loves good things and does not love evil ones? So evils, which God does not love, are not outside order, and yet he loves order itself; for he loves this very thing, to love good things and not to love evil ones, which belongs to a great order and a divine arrangement. And because this order and arrangement preserves the harmony of the universe by distinction itself, it comes about that evils too must exist. So, as from antitheses in a certain way, which also delights us in a speech, from contraries the beauty of all things together is fashioned."
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius replies that God does not love evils, and that this very non-loving is part of order, so that evils, though not loved, belong to an order whose beauty arises from contraries as a speech is adorned by antitheses.
- This is Licentius's view in the dialogue; Augustine qualifies it later in the work.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.18 (CSEL 63:133; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-18). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.19CSEL 63:133–134
Post hoc intersiluit modice et repente sese erigens, qua Trygetius lectum habebat: Nam quaero ex te, quaeso, inquit, iustusne sit deus. — Tacebat ille nimis, ut postea retulit, ammirans et horrens subito condiscipuli et familiaris sui afflatum noua inspiratione sermonem. quo tacente ille ita secutus est: Si enim deum iustum non esse responderis, tu uideris quid agas, qui me dudum impietatis arguebas. si autem, ut nobis traditur nosque ipsius ordinis necessitate sentimus, iustus est deus, sua cuique distribuendo utique iustus est. quae autem distributio dici potest, ubi distinctio nulla est? aut quae distinctio, si bona sunt omnia? quidue praeter ordinem reperiri potest, si dei iustitia bonorum malorumque meritis sua cuique redduntur? iustum autem deum omnes fatemur: totum igitur ordine includitur. — Quibus dictis relisit se strato et iam lenior uoce, cum ei uerbum nemo faceret: Nihilne mihi, inquit, uel tu, qui conpulisti ad ista, respondes?
After this he was silent a little, and suddenly, raising himself toward where Trygetius had his bed, he said: "For I ask you, please: is God just?" Trygetius was silent, greatly wondering, as he told us afterward, and shuddering at the speech of his fellow student and friend, suddenly breathed upon with new inspiration. While he was silent, Licentius went on thus: "If you answer that God is not just, you must see what you are doing, you who were accusing me of impiety a while ago. But if, as we are taught and as we perceive by the very necessity of order, God is just, he is just precisely by giving each his own. But what distribution can be spoken of where there is no distinction? Or what distinction, if all things are good? Or what can be found outside order, if by God's justice each is given his own according to the deserts of good and evil? But we all confess that God is just; therefore everything is included in order." Having said this, he threw himself back on his bed, and, now in a gentler voice, since no one said a word to him, he said: "Do you, who drove me to this, have nothing to answer me either?"
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius argues that God is just in giving each his due, which requires a distinction of good and evil deserts, so that everything is included in order.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.19 (CSEL 63:133–134; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-19). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.20CSEL 63:134–135
Cui ego: Noua nunc religio istaec in te incessit, cedo, inquam. sed quod uidebitur, per diem respondebo, qui mihi iam uidetur redire, nisi lunae est ille qui fenestris fulgor induitur. simul et tacendum est, ne tanta bona tua, Licenti, absorbeat obliuio. quando enim nostrae litterae non sibi haec mandari flagitent? dicam plane tibi quod sentio. disputabo aduersus te, quantum possum; non enim mihi, si me uiceris, maior triumphus dari potest. si autem uel calliditati uel acuto cuidam errori hominum, quorum partes suscipere temptabo, cesserit inbecillitas tua, quae minus pasta eruditione disciplinarum tantum deum fortasse sustinere non poterit, res te ipsa commonebit, quantae tibi uires, ut in eum firmior redeas, parandae sint, simul quia et istam disputationem nostram elimatius uolo prouenire; non enim grossis auribus eam debeo. nam Zenobius noster multa mecum saepe de rerum ordine contulit, cui alta percontanti numquam satisfacere potui seu propter obscuritatem rerum seu propter temporum angustias. crebrarum autem ille procrastinationum usque adeo fuit inpatiens, ut me, quo diligentius et copiosius respondere cogerer, etiam carmine prouocaret, et bono carmine, unde illum magis ames. sed neque tunc tibi legi potuit ab istarum rerum studio remotissimo neque nunc potest. nam profectio eius tam repentina et perturbata fuit tumultu illo, ut nihil istorum uenire nobis in mentem potuerit; nam id relinquere mihi responsuro statuerat et multa concurrunt, cur ei sermo iste mittatur. primum est, quia debetur, deinde, quia, cuius modi nunc uitam ducamus, etiam sic indicari eius in nos beniuolentiae decet, postremo, quod in gaudio de spe tua nemini cedit. nam et cum praesens esset, pro familiaritate patris tui uel potius omnium nostrum multum sollicitus erat, ne ingenii tui quaedam scintillae, quas diligenter animaduertebat, non tam conflarentur cura mea quam tua extinguerentur incuria; et cum te poeticae quoque studiosum esse cognouerit, sic gratulabitur, ut eum mihi gestientem uidere iam uidear.
I said to him: "Some new religion has come upon you, I see. But I will answer what seems good by daylight, which seems to me already returning, unless that brightness that is falling on the windows belongs to the moon. At the same time we must be silent, so that oblivion may not swallow up such great goods of yours, Licentius. For when would our writings not demand that these things be committed to them? I will tell you plainly what I think. I will argue against you as much as I can; for no greater triumph can be given me than if you defeat me. But if your weakness, which, less fed by learning in the disciplines, perhaps could not sustain so great a God, gives way either to cunning or to some sharp error of the men whose side I will try to take, the thing itself will remind you how much strength you must prepare in order to return to him more firmly; and at the same time because I want this discussion of ours to turn out more polished, for I do not owe it to coarse ears. For our Zenobius often discussed much with me about the order of things, and I could never satisfy him when he inquired into deep matters, whether because of the obscurity of the things or because of the shortness of time. And he was so impatient of frequent postponements that, to force me to answer more carefully and fully, he even challenged me with a poem, and a good poem, so that you may love him the more. But it could not be read to you then, since you were very far from the study of these things, nor can it now. For his departure was so sudden and disturbed by that commotion that none of these things could come to our minds; for he had decided to leave it with me to answer, and many things come together for this conversation to be sent to him. First, because it is owed; next, because it is fitting that his goodwill toward us be shown in this way what sort of life we are now leading; and finally, because in joy at your hope he yields to no one. For when he was present, out of friendship for your father, or rather for all of us, he was very anxious lest certain sparks of your talent, which he carefully noticed, should be not so much fanned into flame by my care as extinguished by your carelessness; and when he learns that you are also devoted to poetry, he will be so glad that I seem already to see him exulting."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine promises to argue against Licentius by daylight, both to test him and for Zenobius, who had often pressed him on the order of things and to whom this conversation is owed.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.20 (CSEL 63:134–135; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-20). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.21CSEL 63:135
Nihil mihi quidem gratius facies, inquit; sed siue mobilitatem meam et puerilem leuitatem ridebitis siue aliquo uere diuino nutu et ordine fit in nobis, non uobis dubitem dicere: pigrior sum ad illa metra subito effectus; alia, longe alia nescio quid mihi nunc luce resplenduit. pulchrior est philosophia, fateor, quam Thisbe, quam Pyramus, quam illa Uenus et Cupido talesque omnimodi amores. — Et cum suspirio gratias Christo agebat. accepi ego haec, quid dicam libenter aut quid non dicam? accipiat quisque, ut uolet, nihil curo, nisi quod forte inmodice gaudebam.
"You will do nothing more pleasing to me," he said; "but whether you laugh at my changeableness and boyish levity, or it truly happens in us by some divine nod and order, I would not hesitate to tell you: I have suddenly become lazier about those meters; something else, something far different, has now shone on me with light. Philosophy is more beautiful, I confess, than Thisbe, than Pyramus, than that Venus and Cupid, and all such loves of every kind." And with a sigh he gave thanks to Christ. How shall I say I received this: gladly, or what shall I not say? Let each take it as he will; I do not care, except that perhaps I rejoiced beyond measure.
Notes and citation
Summary: Licentius declares that philosophy is more beautiful than the loves of poetry and gives thanks to Christ.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.21 (CSEL 63:135; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-21). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
1.22CSEL 63:135–136
Interea post paululum dies sese aperuit. surrexerunt illi et ego inlacrimans multa oraui, cum audio Licentium succinentem illud propheticum laete atque garrule: deus uirtutum, conuerte nos et ostende faciem tuam, et salui erimus. quod pridie post caenam cum ad requisita naturae foras exisset, paulo clarius cecinit, quam ut mater nostra ferre posset, quod illo loco talia continuo repetita canerentur. nihil enim aliud dicebat, quoniam ipsum cantilenae modum nuper hauserat et amabat, ut fit, melos inusitatum. obiurgauit eum religiosissima, ut scis, femina ob hoc ipsum, quod inconueniens locus cantico esset. tunc ille dixerat iocans: Quasi uero, si quis hic me inimicus includeret, non erat deus exauditurus uocem meam.
Meanwhile, after a little while, the day broke. They got up, and I, in tears, prayed much, when I heard Licentius singing that prophetic verse joyfully and chattily: "God of hosts, turn us and show your face, and we shall be saved." The evening before, after supper, when he had gone outside for the needs of nature, he had sung it rather too loudly for our mother to bear that such things should be sung repeatedly in that place. For he said nothing else, since he had lately drunk in the very melody of the chant and loved it, as happens, as an unusual tune. That most religious woman, as you know, rebuked him precisely because the place was unsuitable for the canticle. Then he had said jokingly: "As though, if some enemy shut me in here, God would not hear my voice!"
Ps 80:7 (79:8 Vulg.) (quotation, high confidence)
Notes and citation
Summary: At daybreak Licentius sings the psalm verse "God of hosts, turn us," which Monica had rebuked him for singing in the latrine the evening before.
- The verse is Ps 80:7 (79:8 in the Vulgate numbering), as sung in the church's chant.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (Stray period in the digital text.; Word split in the digital text.): uirtutu m → uirtutum; cecinit., quam → cecinit, quam.
Topics: Prayer
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 1.22 (CSEL 63:135–136; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/1-1/#p-1-22). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.