# Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean - Author: [Augustine of Hippo](https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/authors/augustine-of-hippo/) - Latin title: *Acta contra Fortunatum Manichaeum* - Date: 28–29 August 392 (probable) - Source: Joseph Zycha, ed., Sancti Aureli Augustini opera, sect. VI, pars 1, CSEL 25.1 (Vienna: Tempsky; Prague: Tempsky; Leipzig: Freytag, 1891) (Latin text: Joseph Zycha, Acta contra Fortunatum Manichaeum (CSEL 25.1, 1891), digitized by Open Greek and Latin (csel-dev, University of Leipzig), CC BY-SA 4.0) - Translation: Claude, from the original text, unless a passage says otherwise; each passage below gives the translator - Work page: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/ - Passages: 37 ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 1 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-1 - Source: CSEL 25:83–84 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine opens by charging that Manichaean doctrine makes God violable, and Fortunatus asks him, as a former member, to testify to the Manichaeans' way of life. ### Latin text AUGUSTINUS dixit: Ego iam errorem puto, quam antea ueritatem putabam; utrum recte aestimem, a te praesente audire cupio. FORTUNATUS dixit: Coepta errorem exponere. AUGUSTINUS dixit: In primis summum errorem puto omnipotentem deum, in quo una nobis spes est, ex aliqua parte uiolabilem aut coinquinabilem aut corruptibilem credere. hoc uestram haeresim adfirmare scio, non quidem his uerbis, quibus nunc usus sum; nam et uos interrogati confitemini deum esse incorruptibilem et omni modo inuiolabilem et incoinquinabilem; sed cum coeperitis cetera exponere, cogimini eum corruptibilem, penetrabilem et coinquinabilem confiteri. dicitis enim aliam nescio quam gentem tenebrarum aduersus dei regnum rebellasse; deum autem omnipotentem cum uideret, quanta labes et uastitas inmineret regnis suis. nisi aliquid aduersae genti obponeret et ei resisteret, misisse hanc uirtutem, de cuius commixtione cum malo et tenebrarum gente mundus sit fabricatus; hinc esse. quod hic animae bonae laborant, seruiunt, errant, corrumpuntur, ut necessarium haberent liberatorem. qui eas ab errore purgaret et a commixtione solueret et a seruitute liberaret. hoc ego nefas puto credere deum omnipotentem aliquam aduersam gentem timuisse aut necessitatem esse passum, ut nos in aerumnas praecipitaret. FORTUNATUS dixit: Quia te medium fuisse nostrum scio. id est inter Manichaeos administrasse, ista principalia sunt fidei nostrae. de conuersatione hic agitur, de quibus falsis criminibus pulsamur. ex te ergo praesentes audiant boni uiri. utrum sint uera, super quibus criminamur et adpetimur, an sint falsa. etenim ex tua doctrina et ex tua expositione et ostensione poterunt uero uerius scire nostram conuersationem. si a te fuerit prodita. interfuisti orationi? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: What I once thought was truth I now think is error; whether my judgment is right I wish to hear from you, face to face. Fortunatus said: Begin by setting out the error. Augustine said: First of all, I think it the greatest error to believe that almighty God, in whom our one hope lies, can in any part be violated, defiled, or corrupted. I know that your heresy affirms this, not indeed in the words I have just used; for when you are questioned, you too confess that God is incorruptible and in every way inviolable and undefilable; but when you begin to set out the rest, you are compelled to confess that he is corruptible, penetrable, and defilable. For you say that some race of darkness or other rebelled against the kingdom of God; and that almighty God, when he saw how great a ruin and devastation threatened his realms unless he set something against the opposing race and resisted it, sent this power, from whose mixture with evil and with the race of darkness the world was constructed; and that this is why good souls here toil, are in servitude, go astray, and are corrupted, so that they needed a deliverer to cleanse them from error, release them from the mixture, and free them from servitude. I think it impious to believe that almighty God feared any opposing race, or suffered a necessity such that he cast us headlong into hardships. Fortunatus said: Because I know that you were among us, that is, that you took part among the Manichaeans, these are the principal points of our faith. What is at issue here is our way of life, the false charges with which we are assailed. So let the good men present hear from you whether the things of which we are accused and attacked are true or false. For from your teaching, your account, and your showing they will be able to know our way of life more truly than truth itself, if it is disclosed by you. Were you present at our prayer? ### Translation notes - The debate took place at Hippo in 392, in public, with stenographers recording it; Fortunatus was a Manichaean presbyter there. Augustine had been a Manichaean 'hearer' for about nine years before his conversion. The Manichaean account of the war between the kingdom of light and the race of darkness is given here in Augustine's summary. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 1 (CSEL 25:83–84; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-1). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 2 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-2 - Source: CSEL 25:84 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine agrees to speak about morals if the audience wishes, and Fortunatus appeals to him as a witness of Manichaean conduct. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Interfui. sed alia quaestio est de fide, alia de moribus; ego de fide proposui. sed si illi, qui adsunt malunt audire de moribus, nec ipsam quaestionem defugio. FORT. dixit: Purgare me prius uolo penes conscientiam uestram, penes quos polluimur, ex idonei uiri testimonio, qui mihi et nunc idoneus est et in futura iusti iudicii examinatione Christi, si ea, quae iactantur, uidit in nobis uel consecutus est. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I was present. But the question of faith is one thing, the question of morals another; I proposed the question of faith. But if those who are present prefer to hear about morals, I do not shrink from that question either. Fortunatus said: I wish first to clear myself before your conscience, in whose eyes we are defiled, by the testimony of a competent man, who is competent for me both now and at the future examination at the just judgment of Christ: whether he saw in us, or came to know of, the things that are bandied about. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 2 (CSEL 25:84; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-2). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 3 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-3 - Source: CSEL 25:84–86 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine says that as a Hearer he saw nothing shameful at Manichaean prayer and insists on discussing faith; Fortunatus states the Manichaean profession about God and the Savior. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ad aliud uocas, cum ego de fide proposuerim. de moribus autem uestris plene scire possunt, qui electi uestri sunt. nostis autem me non electum uestrum, sed auditorem fuisse. itaque quamuis et orationi uestrae interfuerim, ut interrogasti, utrum separatim uobiscum habeatis aliquam orationem, deus solus potest nosse et uos. ego tamen in oratione, in qua interfui, nihil turpe fieri uidi, sed solum contra fidem animaduerti. quam postea didici et probaui, quod contra solem facitis orationem. praeter hoc in illa oratione uestra nihil noui comperi. quisquis autem uobis obponet quaestionem aliquam de moribus, electis uestris obponit. quid autem inter uos agatis, qui electi estis, ego scire non possum. nam et eucharistiam audiui a uobis saepe quod accipiatis; tempus autem accipiendi cum me lateret, quid accipiatis unde nosse potui? itaque serua, si placet. quaestionem de moribus. ut inter electos uestros discutiatis. si discuti potest. mihi fides data est a uobis, quam hodie inprobo. de ipsa proposui. ad propositum meum mihi respondeatur. FORT. dixit: Et nostra professio ipsa est, quod incorruptibilis sit deus, quod lucidus, quod inadibilis, intenibilis, inpassibilis aeternam lucem et propriam habitet, quod nihil ex sese corruptibile proferat, nec tenebras nec daemones nec satanam, nec aliud aduersum in regno eius reperiri possit; sui similem saluatorem direxisse; uerbum natum a constitutione mundi cum mundum fabricaret, post mundi fabricam inter homines uenisse, dignas sibi animas elegisse sanctae suae uoluntati mandatis suis caelestibus sanctificatas, fide et ratione inbutas caelestium rerum ipso ductore hinc iterum easdem animas ad regnum dei reuersuras esse secundum sanctam ipsius pollicitationem, qui dixit: ego sum uia, ueritas et ianua et: nemo potest ad patrem peruenire, nisi per me. his rebus nos credimus, quia alias animae, id est alio mediante non poterunt ad regnum dei reuerti, nisi ipsum reppererint, ueritatem, uiam et ianuam. ipse enim dixit: qui me uidit, uidit et patrem et: qui in me crediderit, mortem non gustabit in aeternum, sed transitum faciet de morte ad uitam et in iudicium non ueniet. his rebus nos credimus et haec est ratio fidei nostrae et pro uiribus animi nostri mandatis eius obtemperare unam fidem sectantes huius trinitatis, patris et filii et spiritus sancti. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: You are calling me to another subject, when I had proposed the faith. About your morals, however, those who are your Elect can know fully. And you know that I was not one of your Elect but a Hearer. So although I was present at your prayer, as you asked, whether you hold some prayer separately among yourselves God alone can know, and you. Yet at the prayer at which I was present I saw nothing shameful done; I noticed only that, against the faith which I afterwards learned and approved, you make your prayer facing the sun. Apart from this I found out nothing new in that prayer of yours. Whoever raises any question of morals against you raises it against your Elect. What you who are Elect do among yourselves I cannot know. For I often heard from you that you receive the Eucharist; but since the time of receiving it was hidden from me, how could I know what you receive? So keep the question of morals, if you please, to be discussed among your Elect, if it can be discussed. The faith was given me by you, and today I reject it. It is about that that I made my proposal. Let my proposal be answered. Fortunatus said: And our profession is this very thing: that God is incorruptible, that he is full of light, unapproachable, ungraspable, impassible, that he dwells in eternal light that is his own, that he brings forth from himself nothing corruptible, neither darkness nor demons nor Satan, and that nothing else opposed to him can be found in his kingdom; that he sent a Savior like himself; that the Word, born from the foundation of the world, when he was making the world, came among men after the world had been made; that he chose souls worthy of himself, sanctified by his holy will through his heavenly commands, imbued with faith and with the understanding of heavenly things, and that under his guidance these same souls will return from here once more to the kingdom of God, according to the holy promise of him who said, “I am the way, the truth, and the door,” and, “No one can come to the Father except through me.” These things we believe, because otherwise, that is, through any other mediator, souls will not be able to return to the kingdom of God unless they have found him, the truth, the way, and the door. For he himself said, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also,” and, “Whoever believes in me will not taste death for ever, but will pass from death to life and will not come into judgment.” These things we believe, and this is the account of our faith: to obey his commands according to the strength of our mind, following the one faith of this Trinity, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. ### Scripture references - John 14:6: quotation, high confidence - John 10:9: allusion, high confidence - John 14:9: quotation, high confidence - John 8:52: allusion, medium confidence - John 5:24: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - Elect and Hearers were the two classes of Manichaean believers; the Elect kept the full discipline, the Hearers supported them. Fortunatus's profession is translated as he gave it. 'I am the way, the truth, and the door' combines John 14:6 with John 10:9; the last quotation combines John 8:52 and 5:24. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 3 (CSEL 25:84–86; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-3). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 4 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-4 - Source: CSEL 25:86 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine asks what cast souls into death; Fortunatus turns the question to whether anything exists besides God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Has animas, quas de morte ad uitam per Christum uenire fatemini, quae causa praecipitauit in mortem? FORT. dixit: Hinc iam dignare prosequi et contraire, si nihil praeter deum. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: These souls, which you confess come from death to life through Christ: what cause cast them headlong into death? Fortunatus said: From this point deign to pursue the matter and argue against it, if there is nothing besides God. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 4 (CSEL 25:86; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-4). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 5 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-5 - Source: CSEL 25:86 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Each speaker presses the other to answer his own question first. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Immo tu dignare respondere id, quod interrogaris, has animas quae causa morti dederit. FORT. dixit: Immo tu dignare dicere, utrum aliquid sit praeter deum, an omnia in deo sunt. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: No, you deign to answer what you are asked: what cause gave these souls over to death. Fortunatus said: No, you deign to say whether anything exists besides God, or whether all things are in God. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 5 (CSEL 25:86; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-5). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 6 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-6 - Source: CSEL 25:86–87 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine asks by what necessity an incorruptible God sent souls here; Fortunatus asks how souls came into the world if nothing exists besides God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Illud ego respondere possum, quod me dominus nosse uoluit deum necessitatem pati nullam posse neque ex aliqua parte uiolari atque corrumpi. quod cum tu quoque fatearis, quaero, qua necessitate huc miserit animas, quas dicis per Christum redire. FORT. dixit: Quod tu dixisti, quia huc usque tibi deus reuelauit, quod incorruptibilis sit, quemadmodum et mihi, ratio quaerenda est, quemadmodum animae aut ob quam causam istum in mundum uenerunt, ut merito nunc eas per unigenitum filium suum ac sui similem de hoc mundo liberaret, si nil praeter ipsum. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: This I can answer, which the Lord willed me to know: that God can suffer no necessity, and cannot be violated or corrupted in any part. Since you too confess this, I ask by what necessity he sent here the souls which you say return through Christ. Fortunatus said: As to what you said, that God has revealed to you thus far that he is incorruptible, as he has to me also, we must seek the reason how, or for what cause, souls came into this world, so that he should now rightly free them from this world through his only-begotten Son, who is like himself, if there is nothing besides him. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 6 (CSEL 25:86–87; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-6). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 7 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-7 - Source: CSEL 25:87–88 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine states his dilemma (if God could not be harmed he sent souls here without cause; if he could, he is not inviolable), and Fortunatus answers with Philippians 2 as a pattern of the soul's descent. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Non debemus frustrare tantos, qui praesentes sunt, et de quaestione proposita ire ad aliud. si confitemur ambo. si nobis concedimus esse incorruptibilem et inuiolabilem deum et nihil pati potuisse — ex quo est consequens, ut falsa sit haeresis uestra, quae dicit deum cum uideret inminere uastitatem ac labem regnis suis, misisse uirtutem, quae cum tenebrarum gente bellaret, et ex ea commixtione hic nostras animas laborare — breuis ergo est ratio mea et, quantum aestimo, cuiuis planissima. si deus nihil pati potuit a gente tenebrarum, quia inuiolabilis est, sine causa huc nos misit, ut nos hic aerumnas patiamur. si autem aliquid pati potuit, non est inuiolabilis et decipitis eos, quibus dicitis esse inuiolabilem deum. hoc enim uestra haeresis negat, cum cetera exponitis. FORT. dixit: Hoc sentimus, quod nos instruit beatus apostolus Paulus, qui dixit: hoc sentite in uobis, quod et in Christo Iesu; qui cum in forma dei esset constitutus, non rapinam arbitratus est aequalem se esse deo, sed semet ipsum exinaniuit formam serui accipiens in similitudinem hominum factus et habitu inuentus ut homo; humiliauit semet ipsum, factus est subditus usque ad mortem. hoc ergo sentimus de nobis, quod et de Christo: qui cum in forma dei esset constitutus. factus est subditus usque ad mortem, ut similitudinem animarum nostrarum ostenderet. et quemadmodum in se mortis similitudinem ostendit et patrem in se et in patre se esse de medio mortuorum resuscitatum, eo modo sentiamus et de animabus nostris futurum, quod per ipsum poterimus de hac morte liberari: quae aut aliena est a deo aut. si propria est dei, et misericordia eius cessat et liberatoris nomen et opera liberantis. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: We ought not to disappoint so many men of standing who are present by passing from the question proposed to another. If we both confess, if we grant each other, that God is incorruptible and inviolable and could suffer nothing (from which it follows that your heresy is false, which says that God, when he saw devastation and ruin threatening his realms, sent a power to war with the race of darkness, and that from that mixture our souls toil here), then my argument is short and, as I judge, perfectly plain to anyone. If God could suffer nothing from the race of darkness, because he is inviolable, he sent us here without cause, to suffer hardships here. But if he could suffer something, he is not inviolable, and you deceive those to whom you say that God is inviolable. For your heresy denies this when you set out the rest. Fortunatus said: We hold what the blessed apostle Paul teaches us, who said: “Have this mind in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count it robbery to be equal with God, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men and found in appearance as a man; he humbled himself, made subject even to death.” This, then, we hold of ourselves which we hold of Christ: that though he was in the form of God, he was made subject even to death, to show the likeness of our souls. And as he showed in himself the likeness of death, and showed that the Father is in him and he in the Father, raised from the midst of the dead, so let us hold that it will be with our souls: that through him we shall be able to be freed from this death, which is either foreign to God, or, if it belongs to God, then both his mercy ceases and the name of deliverer and the works of one who delivers. ### Scripture references - Phil 2:5–8: quotation, high confidence - John 14:10: allusion, medium confidence ### Translation notes - Fortunatus reads the self-emptying of Christ in Philippians 2 as a likeness of the soul's descent into death; translated as he states it. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 7 (CSEL 25:87–88; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-7). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 8 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-8 - Source: CSEL 25:88 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine complains that Fortunatus answers a different question; Fortunatus says the soul's descent parallels Christ's. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ego quaero, quemadmodum in mortem uenerimus. et tu dicis, quemadmodum de morte liberemur. FORT. dixit: Ita apostolus dixit, quomodo sentire debeamus de nostris animis, quod Christus nobis ostendit. si fuit Christus in passione et morte, et nos; si uoluntate patris descendit in passionem et mortem, et nos. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I ask how we came into death, and you tell me how we are freed from death. Fortunatus said: The apostle said in this way how we ought to think about our souls, as Christ showed us: if Christ was in suffering and death, so are we; if by the will of the Father he came down into suffering and death, so did we. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 8 (CSEL 25:88; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-8). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 9 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-9 - Source: CSEL 25:88–89 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine distinguishes Christ's humanity from God's own substance and repeats his dilemma; Fortunatus asks whether the soul is of God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Notum est omnibus catholicam fidem ita se habere, quod dominus noster, id est uirtus et sapientia dei et uerbum, per quod facta sunt omnia et sine quo factum est nihil, ad liberationem nostram hominem suscepit. in ipso homine, quem suscepit. demonstrauit illa, quae dicis. nos autem nunc de ipsius dei et ineffabilis maiestatis substantia quaerimus, utrum ei aliquid nocere possit. an non possit. si enim potest aliquid nocere ei, non est inuiolabilis. si non potest ei aliquid nocere, quid ei factura erat gens tenebrarum, contra quam dicitis bellum gestum esse a deo ante constitutionem mundi, in quo bello nos, id est animas, quas modo indigere liberatoris manifestum est. commixtas esse omni malo et morti inplicitas adseritis? redeo enim ad illud breuissimum: si poterat ei noceri, non est inuiolabilis; si non poterat, crudeliter huc nos misit, ut ista patiamur. FORT. dixit: Anima dei est, an non? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: It is known to all that the catholic faith holds this: that our Lord, that is, the power and wisdom of God and the Word, through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made, took on a man for our deliverance. In that man whom he took on he showed the things you speak of. But we are now inquiring about the substance of God himself and of his ineffable majesty, whether anything can harm him or not. For if anything can harm him, he is not inviolable. If nothing can harm him, what was the race of darkness going to do to him, against which you say war was waged by God before the foundation of the world, in which war you assert that we, that is, souls, which plainly now need a deliverer, were mixed with every evil and entangled in death? For I return to that very short argument: if he could be harmed, he is not inviolable; if he could not, he cruelly sent us here to suffer these things. Fortunatus said: Is the soul of God, or not? ### Scripture references - 1 Cor 1:24: allusion, high confidence - John 1:3: allusion, high confidence ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 9 (CSEL 25:88–89; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-9). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 10 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-10 - Source: CSEL 25:89 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine agrees to be questioned; Fortunatus asks whether the soul acts in its own right. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Si iustum est, ut non interrogatis meis respondeatur et ego interroger, respondeo. FORT. dixit: Si in proprio agit anima, hoc a te quaero. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: If it is just that my questions go unanswered and I am questioned, I answer. Fortunatus said: Whether the soul acts in its own right: this is what I ask you. ### Translation notes - Fortunatus's question (si in proprio agit anima) is obscure; it may mean whether the soul acts by its own power or is in its own proper realm. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 10 (CSEL 25:89; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-10). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 11 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-11 - Source: CSEL 25:89–90 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine argues that the soul, which sins and changes, cannot be God's substance; Fortunatus maintains that the soul is from God and presses Augustine for his own view. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ego dicam quod interrogasti; tantum illud memineris te noluisse respondere interrogatis meis, me autem tuis respondere. si quaeris, utrum a deo descenderit anima, magna quidem quaestio est; sed siue a deo descendit siue non, illud de anima respondeo non esse deum: aliud esse deum, aliud animam. deum esse inuiolabilem, incorruptibilem et inpenetrabilem et incoinquinabilem, et qui nulla ex parte corrumpi potest, et cui nulla ex parte noceri possit. animam uero uidemus et peccatricem esse et in aerumna uersari et ueritatem quaerere et liberatore indigere. haec mutatio animae ostendit mihi, quod anima non sit deus. nam si anima substantia dei est, substantia dei errat, substantia dei corrumpitur, substantia dei uiolatur, substantia dei decipitur: quod nefas est dicere. FORT. dixit: Ergo negasti animam ex deo esse, quamdiu peccatis ac uitiis et mundanis rebus deseruit et errore ducitur, quod fieri non potest, aut ut deus hoc patiatur aut substantia eius. est enim deus incorruptibilis et substantia eius inmaculata est et sancta. hic uero quaeritur a uobis, utrum anima ex deo sit necne. quod nos fatemur et ostendimus ex saluatoris aduentu, ex ipsius sancta praedicatione, ex ipsius lectione. dum animis miseretur et secundum eius arbitrium anima uenisse dicitur, ut eandem de morte liberaret et perduceret eam ad aeternam gloriam et restitueret patri. quid uero de anima tu ipse dicis aut speras, utrum sit a deo, necne? et substantiam dei, ex qua neges esse animam, nullis passionibus posse subiacere? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I will say what you asked; only remember that you refused to answer my questions, while I answer yours. If you ask whether the soul came down from God, it is indeed a great question; but whether it came down from God or not, I answer concerning the soul that it is not God: God is one thing, the soul another. God is inviolable, incorruptible, impenetrable, and undefilable, one who can be corrupted in no part and harmed in no part. But the soul we see to be sinful, to be in hardship, to seek the truth, and to need a deliverer. This change in the soul shows me that the soul is not God. For if the soul is the substance of God, the substance of God errs, the substance of God is corrupted, the substance of God is violated, the substance of God is deceived: which it is impious to say. Fortunatus said: So you have denied that the soul is from God, on the ground that it is subject to sins and vices and worldly things and is led by error, since it cannot be that either God or his substance suffers this. For God is incorruptible and his substance is immaculate and holy. But the question here put by you is whether the soul is from God or not. This we confess, and show it from the coming of the Savior, from his holy preaching, from what is read of him, since he has mercy on souls and the soul is said to have come according to his will, so that he might free it from death, lead it to eternal glory, and restore it to the Father. But what do you yourself say or hope about the soul: is it from God or not? And can the substance of God, from which you deny that the soul is, be subject to no sufferings? ### Translation notes - 'From what is read of him' renders ex ipsius lectione; NPNF reads 'election'. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 11 (CSEL 25:89–90; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-11). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 12 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-12 - Source: CSEL 25:90 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine says the soul is from God as made by him, not as part of him; Fortunatus asks from what God made it. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Animam sic negaui esse substantiam dei ut negem esse illam deum, sed tamen ex deo auctore esse. quia facta est a deo. aliud est qui fecit, aliud quod fecit; qui fecit, corruptibilis esse omnino non potest; quod autem fecit. omnimodo non potest aequale illi esse. qui fecit. FORT. dixit: Nec ego dixi animam similem esse deo. sed quia dixisti facticiam esse animam et nihil praeter deum, quaero, undenam deus animae. substantiam adinuenit. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I have denied that the soul is the substance of God in the sense that I deny it is God; yet it is from God as its author, because it was made by God. He who made is one thing, what he made is another; he who made cannot be corruptible at all, but what he made cannot in any way be equal to him who made it. Fortunatus said: Nor did I say that the soul is like God. But since you said that the soul is made and that there is nothing besides God, I ask where God found the substance of the soul. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 12 (CSEL 25:90; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-12). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 13 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-13 - Source: CSEL 25:90–91 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine answers that God, being almighty, made the soul and all things from nothing. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Tantum memento me respondere ad ea, quae interrogas, te autem ad ea, quae interrogo, non respondere. animam dico factam a deo, ut cetera omnia, quae a deo facta sunt, et inter illa, quae deus omnipotens fecit, principalem locum datum esse animae. si autem quaeris, unde deus. fecit animam, memento confiteri me tecum esse deum omnipotentem. omnipotens autem non est, qui quaerit adiuuari aliqua materia, unde faciat quod uelit. ex quo est consequens, ut secundum fidem nostram omnia, quae deus fecit per uerbum et sapientiam suam, de nihilo fecerit. sic enim legimus: ipse iussit et facta sunt; ipse mandauit et constituta sunt. FORT. dixit: Ex iussione constant uniuersa? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Only remember that I answer what you ask, but you do not answer what I ask. I say that the soul was made by God, like all the other things that were made by God, and that among the things which almighty God made, the chief place was given to the soul. But if you ask from what God made the soul, remember that I confess with you that God is almighty. And he is not almighty who seeks the help of some material from which to make what he wills. From this it follows that, according to our faith, all the things that God made through his Word and Wisdom he made from nothing. For so we read: “He commanded, and they were made; he gave the order, and they were established.” Fortunatus said: Do all things consist by his command? ### Scripture references - Ps 148:5: quotation, high confidence - Ps 33:9 (32:9 LXX): allusion, medium confidence ### Translation notes - The quotation is Ps 148:5 (compare Ps 33:9). ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 13 (CSEL 25:90–91; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-13). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 14 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-14 - Source: CSEL 25:91 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus argues from the opposition of light and darkness, truth and falsehood, that there are two substances. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ita credo, sed uniuersa, quae facta sunt. FORT. dixit: Facta consonant, sed quia inconuenientia sibi sunt haec, per hoc ergo constat non esse unam substantiam, licet ex unius iussione eadem ad compositionem mundi huius et faciem uenerint. ceterum rebus ipsis paret, quia nihil simile tenebrae et lux. nihil simile ueritas et mendacium, nihil simile mors et uita, nihil simile anima et corpus et cetera istis similia, quae et nominibus et speciebus distant ab inuicem, et merito dixisse dominum nostrum: arbor. quam non plantauit pater meus caelestis, eradicabitur et in ignem mittetur, quae non adferet fructus bonos, et esse arborem radicatam. hinc uero constat et ratione rerum, quod duae sunt substantiae in hoc mundo, quae speciebus et nominibus distant: quarum est una corporis. alia uero aeterna, patris omnipotentis quam esse credimus. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: So I believe, but all the things that were made. Fortunatus said: As things made they agree; but since these things are incompatible with one another, it is established by this that there is not one substance, even if by the command of one they came to the composition and appearance of this world. For the rest, it is evident from the things themselves that darkness and light are nothing alike, truth and falsehood nothing alike, death and life nothing alike, soul and body nothing alike, and the other things like these, which differ from one another in names and in kinds; and our Lord rightly said, “The tree which my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted and thrown into the fire,” the tree that does not bear good fruit, and that the tree is rooted. From this it is established also by the nature of things that there are two substances in this world, which differ in kinds and names: one of them is the substance of the body, the other is eternal, which we believe to be the almighty Father's. ### Scripture references - Matt 15:13: quotation, high confidence - Matt 7:19: allusion, high confidence ### Translation notes - The saying combines Matt 15:13 with Matt 7:19. 'And that the tree is rooted' (esse arborem radicatam) is translated as printed; Fortunatus seems to mean that the evil tree has its own root. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 14 (CSEL 25:91; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-14). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 15 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-15 - Source: CSEL 25:91–92 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine explains evil as voluntary sin and its just punishment, made possible by the free choice God gave the soul. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Contraria ista, quae te mouent, ut aduersa sentiamus, propter peccatum nostrum, id est propter peccatum hominis contigerunt. nam omnia deus et bona fecit, et bene ordinauit; peccatum autem non fecit et hoc est solum, quod dicitur malum, uoluntarium nostrum peccatum. est et aliud genus mali, quod est poena peccati. cum ergo duo sint genera malorum, peccatum et poena peccati, peccatum ad deum non pertinet, poena peccati ad uindicem pertinet.etenim ut bonus est deus, quia omnia constituit. sic iustus est, ut uindicet in peccatum. cum ergo omnia optime sint ordinata, quae uidentur nobis nunc aduersa esse. merito contigit hominis lapsi, qui legem dei seruare noluit. animae enim rationali, quae est in homine, dedit deus liberum arbitrium; sic enim posset habere merita, si uoluntate. non necessitate boni essemus. cum ergo oporteat non necessitate, sed uoluntate bonum esse, oportebat, ut deus animae daret liberum arbitrium. huic autem animae obtemperanti legibus suis omnia subiecit sine aduersitate, ut ei cetera, quae deus condidit, seruirent. si et ipsa deo seruire uoluisset; si autem ipsa noluisset deo seruire, ut ea, quae illi seruiebant, in poenam eius conuerterentur. quare si recte omnia a deo ordinata sunt, et bona sunt et deus non patitur malum. FORT. dixit: Non patitur, sed malum praeuenit deus. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: These contraries that move you to think things adverse came about on account of our sin, that is, on account of the sin of man. For God made all things good and ordered them well; but sin he did not make, and this alone is what is called evil: our voluntary sin. There is also another kind of evil, which is the punishment of sin. Since, then, there are two kinds of evil, sin and the punishment of sin, sin does not pertain to God; the punishment of sin pertains to him as avenger. For as God is good, in that he established all things, so he is just, in that he avenges sin. Since, then, all things are ordered most excellently, the things that now seem adverse to us have befallen man deservedly, fallen as he is, since he would not keep the law of God. For to the rational soul which is in man God gave free choice; for only so could we have merits, if we were good by will, not by necessity. Since, then, one ought to be good not by necessity but by will, it was fitting that God should give the soul free choice. To this soul, while it obeyed his laws, he subjected all things without adversity, so that the other things God created should serve it, if it too were willing to serve God; but if it were unwilling to serve God, the things which served it would be turned to its punishment. Therefore, if all things are rightly ordered by God, they are good, and God suffers no evil. Fortunatus said: He does not suffer it, but God forestalls evil. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 15 (CSEL 25:91–92; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-15). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 16 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-16 - Source: CSEL 25:92–93 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus argues that precepts presuppose an opposing power and reads Ephesians 2 in support. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: A quo enim passurus erat? FORT. dixit: Hoc meum est, quia praeuenire uoluit, non temere, sed uirtute et praescientia. ceterum nega malum praeter deum esse, cum per praecepta ostendit, quia sunt alia, quae praeter uoluntatem ipsius fiunt. praeceptum non intercedit, nisi ubi est et contrarietas; libera facultas uiuendi non datur, nisi ubi est lapsus secundum apostoli rationem, qui dicit: et uos cum essetis mortui delictis et peccatis uestris. in quibus aliquando ambulastis secundum magisterium huius mundi, secundum principem potestatis aeris huius. spiritus, qui nunc operatur in filiis diffidentiae, in quibus et nos et omnes aliquando conuersati sumus in desideriis carnis nostrae facientes uoluntates consiliorum carnis. et eramus naturaliter filii irae, sicut et ceteri. deus autem, qui diues est in omni misericordia, misertus est nobis. et cum mortui essemus peccatis, conuiuificauit nos in Christo, cuius gratia estis salui facti; et simul suscitauit et cum eo collocauit in caelestibus cum Christo Iesu, ut ostenderet in saeculis superuenientibus et cetera usque ad id, quod scriptum est interficiens inimicitiam in semet ipso. et ueniens euangelizauit pacem uobis, qui longe, pacem iis, qui prope. quoniam per ipsum habemus uterque in uno spiritu accessum ad patrem. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: From whom, then, was he going to suffer it? Fortunatus said: This is my point: that he willed to forestall it, not rashly, but by power and foreknowledge. For the rest, deny that evil exists apart from God, when through his precepts he shows that there are other things which happen apart from his will. A precept does not intervene except where there is also opposition; free capacity of living is not given except where there is a fall, according to the reasoning of the apostle, who says: “And you, when you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the teaching of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, the spirit which now works in the sons of unbelief, among whom we too and all once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the wills of the counsels of the flesh; and we were by nature children of wrath, as the rest also. But God, who is rich in all mercy, had mercy on us, and when we were dead in sins made us alive together in Christ, by whose grace you have been saved; and raised us together and seated us together in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus, that he might show in the ages to come,” and the rest, up to what is written, “killing the enmity in himself. And coming he preached peace to you who were far off, and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.” ### Scripture references - Eph 2:1–7: quotation, high confidence - Eph 2:16–18: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - Fortunatus recites Eph 2:1–18; the transcript abbreviates the middle with 'and the rest'. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 16 (CSEL 25:92–93; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-16). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 17 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-17 - Source: CSEL 25:93–96 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine argues that sin, repentance, and forgiveness presuppose free will and cites 'by nature children of wrath'; Fortunatus answers that Paul meant this of the body and that the soul is from God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ista apostoli lectio, quam recitare uoluisti. si non fallor, pro mea plurimum et contra tuam fidem facit. primo quia ipsum liberum arbitrium, quo ego dixi fieri, ut anima peccet, satis hic expressum est. cum peccata nominauit et cum reconciliationem nostram dixit fieri cum deo per Iesum Christum. peccando enim auersi eramus a deo, tenendo autem praecepta Christi reconciliamur deo, ut qui in peccatis mortui eramus, seruantes praecepta eius uiuificemur et pacem habeamus cum illo in uno spiritu, a quo alienati eramus non seruantes mandata eius, sicuti de homine, qui primus est conditus, in fide nostra praedicatur. ergo nunc quaero abs te, secundum eam lectionem, quae lecta est, quomodo habeamus peccata, si natura contraria nos cogit facere, quod facimus. qui enim cogitur necessitate aliquid facere, non peccat; qui autem peccat, libero arbitrio peccat. quare sit nobis paenitentia imperata, si nos nihil mali fecimus. sed gens tenebrarum? quaero item, indulgentia peccatorum cui detur: nobis, an genti tenebrarum. si genti tenebrarum datur indulgentia peccatorum, regnabit et ipsa cum deo accipiens indulgentiam peccatorum; si autem nobis datur indulgentia peccatorum, manifestum est, quia uoluntate peccauimus. satis enim stultum est ignosci ei, qui nihil mali fecit; nihil autem mali fecit, qui nihil sua uoluntate fecit. hodie ergo anima pollicente sibi deo indulgentiam peccatorum et reconciliationem si peccare destiterit et de peccatis paenitentiam gesserit, si respondeat secundum uestram fidem et dicat: quid enim peccaui? quid commerui? quid me expulisti de regnis tuis, ut contra nescio quam gentem pugnarem? depressa sum, permixta sum, corrupta sum, defecta sum, non est mihi seruatum liberum arbitrium. tu nosti necessitatem, qua pressa sum; cur mihi inputas uulnera, quae suscepi? quare me cogis ad paenitentiam, cum tu causa sis uulnerum meorum; cum tu scias, quae passa sum, gentem tenebrarum in me fecisse te auctore, qui uiolari non poteras et tamen uolens cauere regnis tuis, quibus nihil noceri possit, me in miserias praecipitasti? si certe ego pars tua sum, quae de uisceribus tuis processi, si de regno tuo et de ore tuo, in hac gente tenebrarum aliquid pati non debui, ut me incorrupta illa subiceretur, si pars eram domini. nunc autem cum illa temperari non posset nisi mea corruptione, quomodo aut pars tua dicor aut tu inuiolabilis manes aut non es crudelis, qui me pati uoluisti pro his regnis, quibus nihil noceri poterat ab illa gente tenebrarum? ad hoc responde, si placet, et dignare etiam illud mihi exponere, quomodo dictum est a Paulo apostolo: eramus naturaliter filii irae, quos reconciliatos dicit deo. si ergo naturaliter filii. irae erant, quomodo dicis naturaliter esse animam filiam dei et portionem dei? FORT. dixit: Si secundum animam dixisset apostolus, quod simus naturaliter filii irae, alienata esset anima ore apostoli a deo. et hac modo tu ratione ostendis, quod anima non sit dei, quia naturaliter, inquit apostolus. sumus irae filii. si uero secundum quod lege tenebatur idem apostolus ex semine Abraham, ut ipse contestatur, descendens, constat eum corporaliter dixisse nos fuisse filios irae. sicut et cetera. animae uero substantiam ostendit, quod sit ex deo, et animam aliter non posse reconciliari deo nisi per magistrum, qui est Christus Iesus. interfecta tamen inimicitia uidebatur anima indigna extitisse deo; sed quia missa est, hoc confitemur, a deo tamen omnipotente et originem trahens et missa ad ipsius uoluntatem consignandam, quemadmodum et saluatorem Christum credimus de caelo uenisse uoluntatem patris complere. quae uoluntas patris haec erat animas nostras de eadem inimicitia liberare interfecta eadem inimicitia. quae si aduersa deo non fuisset, nec inimicitia uocaretur. ubi erat unitas, nec interfectio diceretur aut fieret, ubi erat uita. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: This reading of the apostle, which you chose to recite, if I am not mistaken, makes very much for my faith and against yours. First, because that very free choice by which, as I said, it comes about that the soul sins is sufficiently expressed here, when he named sins and when he said that our reconciliation with God comes about through Jesus Christ. For by sinning we had turned away from God, but by keeping the precepts of Christ we are reconciled to God, so that we who were dead in sins may, by keeping his precepts, be made alive and have peace with him in one Spirit, from whom we had been estranged by not keeping his commandments, as our faith proclaims concerning the man who was first created. So now I ask you, according to the reading that has been read, how we have sins if a contrary nature forces us to do what we do. For one who is forced by necessity to do something does not sin; but one who sins sins by free choice. Why has repentance been enjoined on us, if we have done nothing evil, but the race of darkness has? I ask likewise: to whom is the forgiveness of sins given, to us or to the race of darkness? If forgiveness of sins is given to the race of darkness, it too will reign with God, receiving forgiveness of sins; but if forgiveness of sins is given to us, it is plain that we sinned by will. For it is quite foolish that one should be pardoned who has done nothing evil; and he has done nothing evil who has done nothing by his own will. Today, then, when God promises the soul forgiveness of sins and reconciliation if it ceases to sin and repents of its sins, suppose it were to answer according to your faith and say: “What sin have I committed? What have I deserved? Why did you expel me from your realms, to fight against some race or other? I have been weighed down, mixed, corrupted, exhausted; free choice was not preserved for me. You know the necessity by which I was pressed; why do you charge me with the wounds I received? Why do you compel me to repentance, when you are the cause of my wounds; when you know what I suffered, what the race of darkness did to me on your authority; you who could not be violated, and yet, wishing to protect your realms, which nothing could harm, cast me headlong into miseries? If indeed I am a part of you, who came forth from your inmost being, from your kingdom and from your mouth, I ought to have suffered nothing in this race of darkness, so that it would have been subjected while I remained uncorrupted, if I was a part of the Lord. But now, since it could not be tempered except by my corruption, how am I called a part of you, or how do you remain inviolable, or how are you not cruel, who willed me to suffer for those realms which nothing could harm from that race of darkness?” Answer this, if you please, and deign also to explain to me how it is said by the apostle Paul, “We were by nature children of wrath,” those whom he says were reconciled to God. If, then, they were by nature children of wrath, how do you say that the soul is by nature a daughter of God and a portion of God? Fortunatus said: If the apostle had said with respect to the soul that we are by nature children of wrath, the soul would have been estranged from God by the apostle's own mouth; and in this way you show by reasoning that the soul is not of God, because, says the apostle, we are by nature children of wrath. But if it is with respect to the fact that the same apostle was held by the law, descending from the seed of Abraham, as he himself testifies, then it is plain that he said in a bodily sense that we were children of wrath, as the rest also. But he shows that the substance of the soul is from God, and that the soul cannot be reconciled to God otherwise than through the teacher, who is Christ Jesus. The soul did indeed appear to have become unworthy of God until the enmity was slain; but that it was sent, this we confess: sent, however, by almighty God, both taking its origin from him and sent to seal his will, just as we believe that Christ the Savior came from heaven to fulfil the will of the Father. And this will of the Father was to free our souls from that enmity by slaying the enmity. If it had not been opposed to God, it would not be called enmity where there was unity, nor would slaying be spoken of or take place where there was life. ### Scripture references - Eph 2:3: quotation, high confidence - Eph 2:16: allusion, high confidence - Phil 3:5: allusion, medium confidence - Rom 11:1: allusion, medium confidence ### Translation notes - Augustine puts in the mouth of the soul the complaint that, on Manichaean premises, God sent it into the darkness for his own protection. 'Until the enmity was slain' renders an obscure ablative absolute (interfecta tamen inimicitia), literally 'yet, the enmity having been slain'; the sense is uncertain. Fortunatus's reading of Eph 2:3 as referring to the body is translated as he gives it. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 17 (CSEL 25:93–96; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-17). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 18 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-18 - Source: CSEL 25:96 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus states plainly the Manichaean teaching of two substances, light and darkness. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Memento, quod apostolus dixerit conuersatione nos alienatos a deo esse. FORT. dixit: Trado ego duas substantias fuisse: in lucis substantia haberi deum, ut superius diximus, incorruptibilem: fuisse uero contrariam naturam tenebrarum. eam uirtute dei uinci hodieque confiteor, et ad meum regressum saluatorem esse Christum emissum, ut ante idem apostolus ait. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Remember that the apostle said that we were estranged from God by our conduct. Fortunatus said: I teach that there were two substances: that God is held to be in the substance of light, incorruptible, as we said above; but that there was a contrary nature of darkness. I confess that this is overcome by the power of God even today, and that Christ the Savior was sent forth for my return, as the same apostle said above. ### Scripture references - Col 1:21: allusion, medium confidence - Eph 4:18: allusion, low confidence ### Translation notes - Augustine's remark recalls Col 1:21 and Eph 4:18. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 18 (CSEL 25:96; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-18). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 19 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-19 - Source: CSEL 25:96–97 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine cites Romans 1:3–4 on Christ's descent from David according to the flesh; Fortunatus rejects it, the first day breaks up after he says the Word of God is bound in darkness, and on the second day he restates that evils are foreign to God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Rationibus ut discuteremus duarum naturarum fidem, interpositum est ab his, qui nos audiunt. sed quoniam ad scripturas iterum confugisti, ad eas ego descendo ac nihil praetermittendum esse postulo, ne quibusdam capitibus utentes nebulas adferamus eis, quibus notae scripturae non sunt. a capite igitur quod habet apostolus Paulus in epistula sua ad Romanos consideremus. in prima enim pagina est, quod uehementer contra uos est. dicit enim: Paulus seruus Iesu Christi, uocatus apostolus, praedestinatus in euangelium dei. quod ante promiserat per prophetas suos in scripturis sanctis, de filio, qui factus est ei ex semine Dauid secundum carnem, qui praedestinatus est filius dei in uirtute secundum spiritum sanctificationis ex resurrectione mortuorum Iesu Christi domini nostri. uidemus apostolum de domino nostro nos docere, ut et uirtute dei ante carnem praedestinatus fuerit et secundum carnem factus sit ei de semine Dauid. hoc uos cum semper negaueritis et negetis, quomodo scripturas flagitatis, ut secundum eas potius disseramus? FORT. dixit: Secundum carnem adseritis ex semine Dauid, cum praedicetur ex uirgine esse natus, et filius dei magnificetur. fieri enim non potest, nisi ut quod de spiritu est, spiritus habeatur, et quod de carne est, caro intellegatur. contra quod est ipsa auctoritas euangelii, qua dicitur, quod caro et sanguis regnum dei possidere non possunt, nec corruptio incorruptelam possidebit. Hic strepitus factus est a consedentibus, qui rationibus potius agi uolebant, quia uidebant eum non omnia, quae in apostoli codice scripta sunt, uelle accipere. deinde passim sermocinatio ab omnibus haberi coepit, quousque diceret sermonem dei ligatum esse in gente tenebrarum. quod cum exhorruissent qui aderant, discessum est. Postera die adhibito iterum notario res acta sic est. FORT. dixit: Dico, quod nihil mali ex se proferat omnipotens deus et quod quae sua sunt incorrupta maneant uno ex fonte inuiolabili orta et genita; cetera uero, quae in hoc mundo uersantur contraria, non ex deo manare nec principe deo paruisse in hoc saeculo, id est quod non ex ipso originem trahant. haec ergo in fide suscepimus, quod aliena sint mala a deo. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Those who are listening to us proposed that we should discuss belief in the two natures by reasoning. But since you have again taken refuge in the Scriptures, I come down to them, and I ask that nothing be passed over, lest by using certain selected passages we bring a fog upon those to whom the Scriptures are not known. Let us consider, then, from the beginning what the apostle Paul has in his letter to the Romans. For on its first page there is something strongly against you. For he says: “Paul, servant of Jesus Christ, called an apostle, predestined for the gospel of God, which he had promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was made for him from the seed of David according to the flesh, who was predestined Son of God in power according to the Spirit of sanctification from the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.” We see the apostle teaching us about our Lord that he was both predestined by the power of God before the flesh and made for him from the seed of David according to the flesh. Since you have always denied this and deny it still, how can you demand the Scriptures, so that we discuss according to them instead? Fortunatus said: You assert that he is from the seed of David according to the flesh, when he is proclaimed to have been born of a virgin and is magnified as the Son of God. For it cannot be otherwise than that what is of spirit is held to be spirit, and what is of flesh is understood to be flesh. Against this is the very authority of the gospel, in which it is said that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God, nor will corruption possess incorruption. At this point an uproar was raised by those sitting by, who wanted the matter to be conducted by reasoning instead, because they saw that he was unwilling to accept everything written in the apostle's book. Then conversation began to be held here and there by everyone, until he said that the Word of God was bound in the race of darkness. When those present shuddered at this, the meeting broke up. On the following day, a stenographer being employed again, the proceedings went as follows. Fortunatus said: I say that almighty God brings forth nothing evil from himself, and that what is his remains uncorrupted, arisen and begotten from one inviolable fountain; but that the other things which exist in this world as contraries do not flow from God, nor have they obeyed God as their principle in this age, that is, they do not derive their origin from him. These things, then, we have received in faith: that evils are foreign to God. ### Scripture references - Rom 1:1–4: quotation, high confidence - John 3:6: allusion, medium confidence - 1 Cor 15:50: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - The narrative between the two days (the uproar, the adjournment) is the stenographers' record. Fortunatus's objection to Christ's descent from David reflects the Manichaean denial of Christ's real flesh; translated as given. The saying he calls 'the gospel' is 1 Cor 15:50. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 19 (CSEL 25:96–97; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-19). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 20 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-20 - Source: CSEL 25:97–100 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine argues that a faith in an incorruptible God whose creatures sin by free will is worthier than one that makes God's own part suffer; Fortunatus replies that we sin unwillingly, compelled by a hostile substance. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Et nostra fides haec est, quod malorum genitor non sit deus neque ullam naturam fecerit malam. sed cum uterque nostrum consentiat incorruptibilem deum et incoinquinabilem, prudentium est aestimare et fidelium, quae sit fides purior et maiestate dei dignior: illa. ubi adseritur uel uirtus dei uel pars aliqua dei uel sermo dei posse commutari. uiolari, corrumpi, ligari, an ea, ubi dicitur et omnipotentem deum et omnem ipsius naturam et substantiam nulla parte umquam posse corrumpi, sed mala esse uoluntario peccato animae, cui dedit deus liberum arbitrium. quod liberum arbitrium si non dedisset deus, iudicium puniendi nullum iustum esse posset nec meritum recte faciendi nec praeceptum diuinum, ut ageretur paenitentia de peccatis, nec ipsa indulgentia peccatorum, quam nobis deus per dominum nostrum Iesum Christum donauit, quia qui non uoluntate peccat, non peccat. hoc arbitror omnibus apertum esse atque perspicuum. quapropter non nos mouere debent, si aliqua in his, quae deus fecit, molesta patimur pro meritis nostris. sicut enim ille bonus est, ut constitueret omnia, sic iustus est, ut peccatis non parcat. quae peccata, ut dixi, nisi libera uoluntas esset in nobis, peccata non essent. si quis enim uerbi causa ligaretur ab aliquo ceteris membris et de manu eius falsum scriberetur sine eius propria uoluntate, quaero, si hoc iudici patefieret, possit hunc hominem falsitatis crimine condemnare? quare si manifestum est peccatum non esse, ubi non est liberum uoluntatis arbitrium, uolo audire animam, quam dicitis aut partem aut uirtutem aut sermonem aut quodlibet aliud dei, quid mali fecerit, ut a deo puniatur aut paenitentiam agat peccati, ut ueniam mereatur, cum nihil ipsa peccauerit. FORT. dixit: De substantiis proposui, quod bonorum tantummodo deus creator, ultor uero malorum habeatur, eo quod mala ex ipso non sint. merito ergo hoc sentio et ulcisci deum mala, quia ex ipso non sunt. ceterum si ex ipso essent aut daret licentiam peccandi, quod dicis liberum arbitrium dedisse deum, consensor iam inueniebatur delicti mei, eo quod delicti mei auctor esset, aut ignorans quod futurus essem delinquere, quem ipse non se dignum institueret. hoc ergo propositum est a me, et quod interrogo nunc, utrum deus mala instituerit necne, et utrum ipse finem malorum instituerit. etenim quae ab ipso diximus facta esse ut opifice deo, uti ab ipso creata et genita incorruptibilia haberi, his rebus et paret et fides euangelica docet. haec ego et proposui, quae sunt credulitatis nostrae et quae a te possunt in ista professione nostra firmari, ita tamen, ut non desit auctoritas fidei christianae. et quia nullo genere recte me credere ostendere possum, nisi eandem fidem scripturarum auctoritate firmauerim, id ergo est, quod insinuaui, quod dixi. aut si mala auctore deo in mundum peruenerunt, hoc ipse dicere dignare; aut si recte creditur mala ex deo non esse, hoc etiam praesentium contemplatio prosequi debet et suscipere. de substantiis dixi, non de peccato, quod in nobis uersatur. si enim originem non haberet, quod cogitamus delicta facere, non cogeremur ad peccatum uenire uel ad delictum. nam quia inuiti peccamus et cogimur a contraria et inimica nobis substantia, idcirco sequimur scientiam rerum. qua scientia admonita anima et memoriae pristinae reddita recognoscet, ex quo originem trahat, in quo malo uersetur, quibus bonis iterum emendans, quod nolens peccauit, possit per emendationem delictorum suorum bonorum operum gratia meritum sibi reconciliationis apud deum collocare auctore deo saluatore nostro. qui nos docet et bona exercere et mala fugere. propositum est enim nobis, quod non aliqua contraria natura. sed sua sponte homo aut iustitiae seruiat aut peccatis se obnoxium faciat. cum nulla contraria gente, si sola uersatur anima in corpore constituta. cui deus, ut dicis, liberum arbitrium dedit. sine peccato esset nec peccatis se obnoxium faceret. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Our faith too is this: that God is not the begetter of evils and made no nature evil. But since each of us agrees that God is incorruptible and undefilable, it is for the prudent and the faithful to judge which faith is purer and more worthy of the majesty of God: that in which it is asserted that the power of God, or some part of God, or the Word of God can be changed, violated, corrupted, bound; or that in which it is said that almighty God and all his nature and substance can never in any part be corrupted, but that evils exist through the voluntary sin of the soul, to which God gave free choice. If God had not given this free choice, there could be no just judgment in punishing, nor merit in doing rightly, nor divine precept that repentance be done for sins, nor that very forgiveness of sins which God has given us through our Lord Jesus Christ; for one who does not sin by will does not sin. I think this is open and clear to all. Therefore it ought not to trouble us if we suffer some hardships among the things God made, according to our deserts. For as he is good, in that he established all things, so he is just, in that he does not spare sins. And these sins, as I said, would not be sins unless there were free will in us. For if, for example, someone were bound by another in all his other limbs, and a forgery were written with his hand without his own will, I ask whether, if this were made clear to a judge, he could condemn this man on a charge of forgery. Therefore, if it is plain that there is no sin where there is no free choice of the will, I want to hear what evil the soul, which you call a part or a power or the Word or anything else of God, has done, that it should be punished by God or do penance for sin to merit pardon, when it has itself sinned in nothing. Fortunatus said: I made my proposal about substances: that God is held to be the creator of good things only, but the avenger of evils, because evils are not from him. Rightly, then, I hold this, that God avenges evils because they are not from him. Otherwise, if they were from him, or if he gave license to sin, since you say God gave free choice, he would already be found to consent to my offense, because he would be the author of my offense; or else ignorant that I would offend, he who would not have established me unworthy of himself. This, then, is what I proposed, and what I now ask: whether God established evils or not, and whether he himself established the end of evils. For the things we have said were made by him, as by God the craftsman, are held, as created and begotten by him, to be incorruptible; this is evident from the things themselves, and the faith of the gospel teaches it. These things I have proposed, which belong to our belief and which can be confirmed by you in this profession of ours, yet so that the authority of the Christian faith is not lacking. And since I can in no way show that I believe rightly unless I have confirmed that faith by the authority of the Scriptures, this, then, is what I have put forward, what I have said. Either, if evils came into the world with God as their author, deign to say so yourself; or, if it is rightly believed that evils are not from God, let the consideration of those present also follow and accept this. I spoke about substances, not about the sin that is in us. For if what makes us think of committing offenses had no origin, we would not be compelled to come to sin or to offense. For because we sin unwillingly and are compelled by a substance contrary and hostile to us, for this reason we follow the knowledge of things. Admonished by this knowledge and restored to its former memory, the soul will recognize from what it takes its origin, in what evil it dwells, and by what good things, amending what it sinned unwillingly, it may through the amendment of its offenses, by the grace of good works, lay up for itself the merit of reconciliation with God, by the agency of God our Savior, who teaches us both to practise good and to flee evil. For what is put to us is that it is not by some contrary nature but of his own accord that a man either serves righteousness or makes himself liable to sins. If there were no contrary race, and the soul, set in the body, dwelt there alone, the soul to which, as you say, God gave free choice, it would be without sin and would not make itself liable to sins. ### Translation notes - Fortunatus's account of sin as compelled by a contrary substance, and of salvation by knowledge that restores the soul's memory of its origin, is Manichaean teaching, translated as he states it. 'Or else ignorant that I would offend, he who would not have established me unworthy of himself' is obscure in the Latin; the sense is uncertain. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 20 (CSEL 25:97–100; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/1/#p-20). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 21 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-21 - Source: CSEL 25:100–103 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine traces evil to sin and desire, the 'root of all evils', and presses the Manichaean on repentance; Fortunatus answers that desire in us is only a small part of an evil that pervades the world. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ego dico peccatum non esse, si non propria uoluntate peccatur; hinc esse et praemium. quia propria uoluntate recta facimus. aut si poenam meretur, qui peccat inuitus. debet et praemium mereri, qui bene facit inuitus. quis autem. qui dubitet non deferri praemium nisi ei. qui aliquid bona uoluntate fecerit? ex quo intellegimus et poenam inferri ei. qui uoluntate mala aliquid fecerit. sed quoniam me ad priores naturas et substantias reuocas. fides mea est omnipotentem deum, quod maxime animaduertendum est et animo figendum, omnipotentem deum iustum et bonum fecisse bona. sed ea. quae ab illo facta sunt, non possunt esse talia, qualis est ipse. qui fecit. iniustum est enim et stultum credere. ut opera paria sint artifici et condita conditori. quapropter si pia fides est, ut omnia bona deus fecerit, quibus tamen ipse est multo excellentior longeque praestantior, origo et caput mali est in. peccato, sicut apostolus dixit: radix omnium malorum est cupiditas; quam quidam sequentes naufragauerunt a fide et inseruerunt se doloribus multis. si enim radicem omnium malorum quaeris, habes apostolum dicentem radicem omnium malorum esse cupiditatem. radicem radicis quaerere non possum; aut si est aliud malum, cuius radix non est cupiditas, non erit omnium malorum radix cupiditas. si autem uerum est omnium malorum radicem esse cupiditatem, frustra aliud aliquod mali genus quaerimus. tua uero natura contraria, quam inducis — quoniam iam respondi obiectis tuis, quaeso, ut et tu mihi dicere digneris — si illa natura contraria est totum malum neque peccatum potest esse nisi ex illa, poenam ipsa sola debet mereri, non anima, a qua non est peccatum. at si dicis ipsam solam mereri poenam et animam non mereri, quaero, cui data sit paenitentia, quae sit iussa paenitere. si anima iussa est paenitere, ab illa peccatum et ipsa uoluntate peccauit. nam si cogitur anima facere malum neque illa est, quod malum fecit, nonne stultum est et plenum dementiae, ut gens tenebrarum peccauerit et me paeniteat de peccatis? nonne plenum dementiae est, ut gens tenebrarum peccauerit et mihi detur indulgentia peccatorum? qui possum dicere secundum fidem uestram: quid feci? quid commisi? apud te fui, integer fui, nulla labe contaminatus fui; tu me huc misisti, tu necessitatem passus es, tu cauisti regnis tuis, cum magna eis labes et uastitas inmineret. cum ergo noueris necessitatem, qua hic obpressus sum, qua respirare non potui, cui resistere non potui: quid me accusas quasi peccantem? aut quid promittis indulgentiam peccatorum? ad hoc sine ambagibus responde. si placet, sicut tibi ego sine ambagibus respondi. FORT. dixit: Haec nos dicimus, quod a contraria natura anima cogatur delinquere: cui non uis esse radicem nisi hoc tantum, quod in nobis malum uersatur, cum constet exceptis nostris corporibus mala in omni mundo uersari. non ista, quae in corporibus solum habemus sed quae in toto mundo uersantur et nominibus ualent bona, mala radix habet. nam dixit dignatio tua, quod haec sit radix malorum, cupiditas. quae in nostris corporibus uersatur, cum quando non est cupiditas mali ex nostris corporibus, ex principali illa contraria natura uersatur in toto mundo. apostolus etenim id nominauit radicem esse malorum cupiditatem, non unum malum, quam dixisti radicem omnium malorum. cupiditas uero non uno modo intellegitur, quam dixisti radicem omnium malorum, quasi quae in cordibus nostris solum uersetur, cum constet hoc quod in nobis uersatur malum, ex auctore malo descendere et portiunculam esse mali hanc radicem, quam tu esse dicis, ut non sit ipsa radix, sed sit portiuncula mali, eius mali. quod ubique uersatur. quam radicem et arborem malam dominus noster appellauit numquam fructus bonos adferentem, quam non plantauit pater suus, ac merito eradicari et in ignem mitti. nam quod dicis contrariae naturae peccatum debere inputari, illa natura mali est; et id esse peccatum animae, si post commonitionem saluatoris nostri et sanam doctrinam eius a contraria et inimica sui stirpe se segregauerit anima, et purioribus se adornans anima; aliter non posse substantiae suae reddi. dictum est enim: si non uenissem et locutus eis fuissem, peccatum non haberent. nunc uero quia ueni et locutus sum et noluerunt mihi credere. ueniam de peccato non habebunt. unde paret recte esse paenitentiam datam post aduentum saluatoris et post hanc scientiam rerum, qua possit anima acsi diuino fonte lota de sordibus et uitiis tam mundi totius quam corporum, in quibus eadem anima uersatur, regno dei, unde progressa est, repraesentari. nam dictum est ab apostolo, quod prudentia carnis inimica sit deo: legi enim dei non est subiecta, nec enim potest. paret ergo his rebus, quod anima bona factione illius, quae legi dei non est subiecta, peccare uidetur, non sua sponte. namque idem sequitur, quod caro concupiscit aduersus spiritum et spiritus aduersus carnem. ut non quaecumque uultis, illa faciatis. dicit iterum: uideo aliam legem in membris meis repugnantem legi mentis meae et captiuum me ducentem in legem peccati et mortis. ergo miser ego homo, quis me liberabit de corpore mortis huius nisi gratia dei per dominum nostrum Iesum Christum, per quem mihi mundus crucifixus est et ego mundo? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I say that there is no sin if one does not sin by one's own will; and that this is why there is also reward, because we do right by our own will. Otherwise, if one who sins unwillingly deserves punishment, one who does good unwillingly ought also to deserve reward. But who doubts that a reward is given only to one who has done something with good will? From this we understand that punishment too is inflicted on one who has done something with evil will. But since you call me back to the first natures and substances, my faith is that almighty God (and this above all must be noted and fixed in the mind), almighty God, just and good, made good things; but the things made by him cannot be such as he is who made them. For it is unjust and foolish to believe that works are equal to the craftsman and things founded to their founder. Therefore, if it is a godly faith that God made all things good, though he himself is far more excellent and far superior to them, the origin and head of evil is in sin, as the apostle said: “The root of all evils is desire; some, pursuing it, have made shipwreck of the faith and have entangled themselves in many sorrows.” For if you seek the root of all evils, you have the apostle saying that the root of all evils is desire. I cannot seek a root of the root; or if there is some other evil whose root is not desire, desire will not be the root of all evils. But if it is true that the root of all evils is desire, we seek some other kind of evil in vain. As for your contrary nature, which you bring in (since I have now answered your objections, I ask that you too deign to tell me): if that contrary nature is wholly evil and there can be no sin except from it, it alone ought to deserve punishment, not the soul, from which the sin does not come. But if you say that it alone deserves punishment and the soul does not, I ask to whom repentance has been given, who has been commanded to repent. If the soul has been commanded to repent, the sin is from the soul, and it sinned by will. For if the soul is forced to do evil, and it is not the soul that did the evil, is it not foolish and full of madness that the race of darkness should sin and I should repent of the sins? Is it not full of madness that the race of darkness should sin and forgiveness of sins be given to me? For can I not say, according to your faith: “What have I done? What have I committed? I was with you, I was whole, I was stained by no blemish; you sent me here, you suffered necessity, you protected your realms, when great ruin and devastation threatened them. Since, then, you know the necessity by which I am oppressed here, under which I could not breathe, which I could not resist, why do you accuse me as a sinner? Or why do you promise forgiveness of sins?” Answer this without evasions, if you please, as I answered you without evasions. Fortunatus said: This is what we say: that the soul is compelled to offend by a contrary nature. You will allow it no root except only this, that evil dwells in us, though it is evident that, apart from our bodies, evils exist in the whole world. Not only the things we have in our bodies, but also those which exist in the whole world and pass for good under their names, have an evil root. For your Worthiness said that this, desire, is the root of evils, the desire which dwells in our bodies; whereas when the desire of evil does not come from our bodies, it dwells in the whole world from that principal contrary nature. For the apostle called desire the root of evils, not a single evil, the desire which you called the root of all evils. But desire, which you called the root of all evils, is not to be understood in one way only, as if it dwelt only in our hearts; for it is evident that this evil which dwells in us descends from an evil author, and that this root, as you call it, is a small portion of evil, so that it is not itself the root but a small portion of evil, of that evil which exists everywhere. This root and evil tree our Lord called one that never bears good fruit, which his Father did not plant, and which is rightly uprooted and thrown into the fire. As for your saying that sin ought then to be charged to the contrary nature: that nature is evil's own; and it is the soul's sin if, after the admonition of our Savior and his sound teaching, the soul separates itself from the stock that is contrary and hostile to it, adorning itself with purer things; otherwise it cannot be restored to its own substance. For it has been said: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now, because I came and spoke and they would not believe me, they will have no pardon for their sin.” Hence it is evident that repentance was rightly given after the coming of the Savior and after this knowledge of things, by which the soul, as if washed in a divine fountain from the filth and vices both of the whole world and of the bodies in which the same soul dwells, may be presented again to the kingdom of God from which it went forth. For it has been said by the apostle that the wisdom of the flesh is hostile to God: “for it is not subject to the law of God, nor can it be.” It is evident, then, from these things that the good soul is seen to sin through the doing of that which is not subject to the law of God, not of its own accord. And the same apostle goes on: “The flesh desires against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, so that you do not do whatever you wish.” He says again: “I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive into the law of sin and death. So, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death, except the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” “through whom the world has been crucified to me and I to the world?” ### Scripture references - 1 Tim 6:10: quotation, high confidence - Matt 15:13: allusion, high confidence - Matt 7:18–19: allusion, high confidence - John 15:22: quotation, high confidence - Rom 8:7: quotation, high confidence - Gal 5:17: quotation, high confidence - Rom 7:23–25: quotation, high confidence - Gal 6:14: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - 'Desire' renders cupiditas in 1 Tim 6:10 (Greek 'love of money'); both speakers use the word in a wider sense. 'It is the soul's sin if ... the soul separates itself' is translated as printed; the sense seems to require that the soul sins if it does not separate itself, and the text may be faulty. Fortunatus's teaching that evil pervades the whole world from a contrary nature is Manichaean doctrine, translated as stated. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 21 (CSEL 25:100–103; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-21). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 22 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-22 - Source: CSEL 25:103–107 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine explains how Adam's free sin and the habits we form bind the will, reads the two trees as two wills, and again asks how sin can be imputed to souls sent by God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Agnosco et amplector testimonia diuinarum scripturarum. et fidei meae quemadmodum congruant, sicut deus donare dignabitur. paucis exponam. liberum uoluntatis arbitrium in illo homine fuisse dico, qui primus formatus est. ille sic factus est, ut nihil omnino uoluntati eius resisteret. si uellet dei praecepta seruare. postquam autem libera ipse uoluntate peccauit, nos in necessitatem praecipitati sumus, qui ab eius stirpe descendimus. potest autem unusquisque nostrum mediocri consideratione inuenire uerum esse. quod dico. hodie namque in actionibus nostris antequam consuetudine aliqua inplicemur, liberum habemus arbitrium faciendi aliquid uel non faciendi. cum autem ista libertate fecerimus aliquid et facti ipsius tenuerit animam perniciosa dulcedo et uoluptas, eadem ipsa consuetudine sua sic inplicatur, ut postea uincere non possit, quod sibi ipsa peccando fabricata est. uidemus multos iurare nolle. sed quia iam consuetudinem lingua tenuit, non posse refrenare, cum ea exeant de ore ipsorum, quae non possumus dicere ad mali stirpem non pertinere. ut enim uobiscum his uerbis agam, quae utinam sicuti de ore uestro non recedunt, ita et corde intellegantur: per paracletum iuratis. si ergo uultis experiri uerum esse. quod dico, instituite non iurare, uidebitis illam consuetudinem ferri quo solet. et hoc est, quod aduersus animam pugnat. consuetudo facta cum carne. ipsa est nimirum carnis prudentia. quae quamdiu ita est, legi dei subici non potest, quamdiu prudentia carnis est; sed inluminata anima desinit illa esse carnis prudentia. sic enim dictum est prudentiam carnis non posse legi dei esse subiectam, quemadmodum si diceretur glacialem niuem calidam esse non posse. nullo pacto enim quamdiu nix est, calida esse potest. sed quemadmodum illa nix calore resoluitur et desinit nix esse, ut possit calescere, at sic illa carnis prudentia, id est consuetudo facta cum carne, cum fuerit mens nostra inluminata et ad arbitrium diuinae legis totum hominem sibi deus subiecerit, pro illa consuetudine animae mala facit consuetudinem bonam. ex quo illae duae arbores, bona arbor et mala arbor, quas commemorasti, uerissime dictum est a domino quod suos fructus habeant, id est neque bonam posse dare malos fructus neque malam bonos, sed malos quamdiu mala est. accipiamus duos homines: bonum hominem et malum hominem. quamdiu bonus est, malos fructus dare non potest; quamdiu malus est, fructus bonos dare non potest. sed ut intellegas istas duas arbores sic esse a domino positas. ut ibi significaretur liberum arbitrium, non naturas esse istas duas arbores, sed uoluntates nostras, ipse ait in euangelio: aut facite arborem bonam aut facite arborem malam. quis est, qui possit facere naturam? si ergo imperatum est nobis, ut faciamus arborem aut bonam aut malam, nostrum est eligere, quid uelimus. de isto ergo peccato hominis et de ista consuetudine animae facta cum carne apostolus dicit: nemo uos seducat: omnis creatura, quae a deo facta est, bona est. dicit idem apostolus, quem tu ipse commemorasti: sicuti per unius inobaudientiam peccatores constituti sunt multi, sic et per unius dicto audientiam iusti constituentur multi, quoniam per hominem mors et per hominem resurrectio mortuorum. quamdiu ergo portamus imaginem terreni hominis, id est quamdiu secundum carnem uiuimus, qui uetus etiam homo nominatur, habemus necessitatem consuetudinis nostrae, ut non quod uolumus faciamus. cum autem gratia dei amorem nobis diuinum inspirauerit et nos suae uoluntati subditos fecerit, quibus dictum est: uos in libertatem uocati estis, et: gratia dei liberauit me a lege peccati et mortis — lex autem peccati est. ut quicumque peccat. moriatur — ab ista lege liberamur, cum iusti esse coeperimus. lex mortis est, qua dictum est homini: terra es et in terram ibis. ex ipso enim omnes sic nascimur. quia terra sumus, et in terram ibimus propter meritum peccati primi hominis. propter autem gratiam dei, quae nos liberat a lege peccati et mortis, ad iustitiam conuersi liberamur: ut postea eadem ipsa caro, quae nos poenis torsit in peccatis manentes, subiciatur nobis in resurrectione et nulla aduersitate nos quatiat, quominus legem et diuina praecepta seruemus. unde quoniam ego respondi tuis, dignare tu respondere illud, quod desidero, quemadmodum fieri possit, ut. si est deo natura contraria, nobis inputetur peccatum. qui in illam naturam non uoluntate, sed ab ipso deo, cui noceri nihil poterat, missi sumus. FORT. dixit: Hoc genere, quemadmodum et dominus dixit discipulis suis: ecce mitto uos sicut oues in medio luporum. hinc sciendum est, quod non inimica mente saluator noster agnos suos, id est discipulos suos in medio luporum dirigere uoluit. nisi esset aliqua contrarietas, quae in similitudine luporum eam deponeret, ubi et discipulos suos miserat, ut quae forte in medio luporum animae possent decipi, ad propriam substantiam reuocarentur. hinc ergo paret antiquitas temporum nostrorum, quam repetimus, et annorum nostrorum ante mundi constitutionem hoc more missas esse animas contra contrariam naturam. ut eandem sua passione subicientes uictoria deo redderetur. nam dixit idem apostolus, quod non solum esset luctatio contra carnem et sanguinem, sed et contra principes et potestates et spiritalia nequitiae et dominationem tenebrarum. si ergo utrobique mala conuersantur et nequitiae habentur. iam non solum est malum in nostris corporibus. sed in toto mundo, ubi uidentur uersari animae. quae sub caelo isto uersantur et inplicatae sunt. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: I acknowledge and embrace the testimonies of the divine Scriptures; and how they agree with my faith I will set out in a few words, as God will deign to grant. I say that there was free choice of the will in that man who was formed first. He was so made that nothing at all resisted his will, if he willed to keep the precepts of God. But after he sinned by free will, we who descend from his stock were cast headlong into necessity. Any of us can find with a little reflection that what I say is true. For today, in our actions, before we are entangled by some habit, we have free choice of doing something or not doing it. But when by that freedom we have done something, and the pernicious sweetness and pleasure of the deed has taken hold of the soul, the soul is so entangled by its own habit that afterwards it cannot conquer what it has fashioned for itself by sinning. We see many who do not wish to swear but, because habit has now taken hold of their tongue, cannot restrain it, since things come out of their mouths which we cannot say do not belong to the root of evil. For, to deal with you in these words of yours (and I wish that, as they never leave your mouths, so they were understood in your hearts): you swear by the Paraclete. If, then, you wish to test whether what I say is true, resolve not to swear: you will see that habit carried where it usually goes. And this is what fights against the soul: habit formed with the flesh. This, surely, is the wisdom of the flesh, which, as long as it is such, cannot be subject to the law of God, as long as it is the wisdom of the flesh; but when the soul is enlightened, it ceases to be the wisdom of the flesh. For it was said that the wisdom of the flesh cannot be subject to the law of God just as if it were said that icy snow cannot be hot. For in no way can it be hot as long as it is snow. But as snow is melted by heat and ceases to be snow, so that it can become warm, so that wisdom of the flesh, that is, habit formed with the flesh, when our mind has been enlightened and God has subjected the whole man to himself under the rule of the divine law, makes, in place of the soul's evil habit, a good habit. Hence it was most truly said by the Lord of those two trees which you mentioned, the good tree and the evil tree, that they have their own fruits: that is, neither can the good give evil fruits nor the evil good ones, but evil ones as long as it is evil. Let us take two men, a good man and an evil man. As long as the one is good, he cannot give evil fruits; as long as the other is evil, he cannot give good fruits. But that you may understand that these two trees were put forward by the Lord so as to signify free choice, and that these two trees are not natures but our wills, he himself says in the gospel: “Either make the tree good, or make the tree evil.” Who is there who can make a nature? If, then, we are commanded to make the tree either good or evil, it is ours to choose what we will. Of this sin of man and of this habit of the soul formed with the flesh, the apostle says: “Let no one deceive you”; “every creature which was made by God is good.” The same apostle whom you yourself mentioned says: “As through the disobedience of one many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one many will be made righteous”; “since through a man came death, and through a man the resurrection of the dead.” As long, then, as we bear the image of the earthly man, that is, as long as we live according to the flesh (which is also called the old man), we have the necessity of our habit, so that we do not do what we will. But when the grace of God has breathed divine love into us and made us subject to his will, we to whom it was said, “You were called to freedom,” and, “The grace of God has freed me from the law of sin and death” (and the law of sin is that whoever sins shall die), we are freed from this law when we have begun to be righteous. The law of death is that by which it was said to man, “You are earth, and to earth you will go.” For from him we are all born so, because we are earth, and we will go to earth because of the desert of the first man's sin. But because of the grace of God, which frees us from the law of sin and death, we are turned to righteousness and freed, so that afterwards that same flesh which tormented us with punishments while we remained in sins may be subjected to us in the resurrection and shake us with no adversity to keep us from observing the law and the divine precepts. Hence, since I have answered your questions, deign to answer what I want to know: how it can be that, if there is a nature contrary to God, sin is imputed to us, who were sent into that nature not by our will but by God himself, whom nothing could harm. ### Scripture references - Rom 8:7: allusion, high confidence - Matt 7:17–18: allusion, high confidence - Matt 12:33: quotation, high confidence - Eph 5:6: quotation, medium confidence - 1 Tim 4:4: quotation, high confidence - Rom 5:19: quotation, high confidence - 1 Cor 15:21: quotation, high confidence - 1 Cor 15:49: allusion, high confidence - Rom 7:15: allusion, medium confidence - Gal 5:13: quotation, high confidence - Rom 8:2: quotation, high confidence - Ezek 18:4: echo, low confidence - Gen 3:19: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - The Manichaeans swore by the Paraclete, whom they identified with Mani. 'Let no one deceive you' recalls Eph 5:6; 'whoever sins shall die' echoes Ezek 18:4, 20. 'The grace of God has freed me' is Augustine's wording of Rom 8:2. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 22 (CSEL 25:103–107; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-22). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 23 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-23 - Source: CSEL 25:107–108 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine interprets the lambs among wolves and the struggle with principalities without two natures, and Fortunatus concedes that God could not be harmed. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Agnos suos dominus noster in medium luporum misit, id est homines iustos in medium hominum peccatorum ad praedicationem euangelii tempore hominis suscepti ab inaestimabili diuina sapientia, ut a peccato ad iustitiam nos uocaret. quod autem ait apostolus nobis colluctationem non esse aduersus carnem et sanguinem, sed aduersus principes et potestates et cetera, quae sunt commemorata. hoc significat: diabolum et angelos eius sicut etiam nos peccato cecidisse et lapsos esse dicimus et obtinuisse terrena, id est homines peccatores, qui quamdiu peccatores sumus, sub iugo eorum sumus; quemadmodum, cum iusti erimus, erimus sub iugo iustitiae; et contra illos luctam habemus, ut migrantes ad iustitiam ab eorum dominatione liberemur. ergo et tu dignare mihi breuiter ad unum, quod interrogo, respondere. noceri deo non poterat, an poterat? sed quaeso mihi ut "non poterat" respondeas. FORT. dixit: Non poterat noceri. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Our Lord sent his lambs into the midst of wolves, that is, righteous men into the midst of sinful men, to preach the gospel at the time when man was taken on by the inestimable divine Wisdom, so as to call us from sin to righteousness. And what the apostle says, that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and the rest that are mentioned, means this: that the devil and his angels also fell and lapsed by sin, as we say we did, and gained possession of earthly things, that is, sinful men; and as long as we are sinners we are under their yoke, just as, when we are righteous, we shall be under the yoke of righteousness; and we have a struggle against them, so that by passing over to righteousness we may be freed from their dominion. So deign, you too, to answer me briefly on the one thing I ask: could God be harmed, or could he not? But I beg you to answer me, “He could not.” Fortunatus said: He could not be harmed. ### Scripture references - Matt 10:16: allusion, high confidence - Eph 6:12: allusion, high confidence ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 23 (CSEL 25:107–108; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-23). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 24 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-24 - Source: CSEL 25:108 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus affirms both that God could not be harmed and that he sent souls here, and asks Augustine to explain the soul's presence. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Quare ergo huc nos misit secundum uestram fidem? FORT. dixit: Professio mea haec est, quia noceri non poterat deo et quod deus huc nos direxit. sed quia id tibi contrarium est, tu dic, qua ratione hic adparuit anima, quam nunc cupit deus noster et mandatis et proprio filio directo liberare? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Why, then, according to your faith, did he send us here? Fortunatus said: My profession is this: that God could not be harmed, and that God directed us here. But since that is contrary to your view, you tell me by what reason the soul appeared here, which our God now desires to free both by his commands and by sending his own Son. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 24 (CSEL 25:108; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-24). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 25 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-25 - Source: CSEL 25:108–109 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine answers that the soul is miserable because it sinned by free choice, and asks again why a God who could not be harmed sent souls here. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Quoniam uideo te interrogatis meis respondere non potuisse et me aliquid interrogare uoluisse, ecce satisfacio tibi, dummodo memineris te ad id. quod interrogaui. non respondisse. anima quare hic sit in mundo inuoluta miseriis, non modo, sed paulo ante nescio quotiens a me dictum est. peccauit anima et ideo misera est. liberum arbitrium accepit, usa est libero arbitrio, quemadmodum uoluit: lapsa est. eiecta de beatitudine, inplicata miseriis. ad hoc tibi testimonium recitaui apostoli dicentis: sicut per unum hominem mors, sic et per unum resurrectio mortuorum. quid quaeris amplius? unde tu responde: cui noceri non poterat, quare huc nos misit? FORT. dixit: Causa haec quaerenda est, cur huc uenerit anima aut quare eandem deus hinc cupit liberare, quae in medio malorum uiuit. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Since I see that you could not answer my questions and wanted to ask me something, see, I satisfy you, provided you remember that you have not answered what I asked. Why the soul is here in the world, wrapped in miseries, I have said not just now but a little earlier, I do not know how many times. The soul sinned and therefore is miserable. It received free choice; it used free choice as it willed; it fell, was cast out of blessedness, was entangled in miseries. To this end I recited to you the testimony of the apostle, saying, “As through one man death, so also through one the resurrection of the dead.” What more do you ask? Now you answer: why did he whom nothing could harm send us here? Fortunatus said: This is the cause to be sought: why the soul came here, or why God desires to free from here the soul that lives in the midst of evils. ### Scripture references - 1 Cor 15:21: quotation, high confidence ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 25 (CSEL 25:108–109; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-25). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 26 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-26 - Source: CSEL 25:109 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus appeals to Romans 9:20 and says that if there was a necessity to send the soul there is also a will to free it. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Hanc causam abs te quaero. id est: si deo noceri non poterat, quare huc nos misit? FORT. dixit: Quaeritur a nobis, si deo malum nocere non possit, cur huc anima missa fuerit, aut qua ratione mundo permixta sit. quod in eo manifestum est, quod ait apostolus: numquid dicit figmentum ei. qui se finxit: cur me ita formaueris? si ergo causanda est haec res, interrogandus est, qui animam direxit nulla cogente se necessitate; si autem necessitas fuerat mittendi animam, merito est et uoluntas liberandi eam. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: It is this cause I ask of you, that is: if God could not be harmed, why did he send us here? Fortunatus said: We are asked, if evil cannot harm God, why the soul was sent here, or for what reason it is mixed with the world. This is plain from what the apostle says: “Does the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you formed me thus?” If, then, this matter is to be made a complaint, he must be asked who directed the soul with no necessity compelling him; but if there was a necessity of sending the soul, there is rightly also a will to free it. ### Scripture references - Rom 9:20: quotation, high confidence ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 26 (CSEL 25:109; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-26). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 27 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-27 - Source: CSEL 25:109 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus denies that God acted under necessity and says he sent the soul voluntarily. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Premitur ergo deus necessitate? FORT. dixit: Iam hoc est: noli ad inuidiam excitare id, quod dictum est, quod non necessitati facimus subditum esse deum, sed uoluntarie misisse animam. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Is God, then, pressed by necessity? Fortunatus said: Now this is the point: do not stir up ill will over what was said, for we do not make God subject to necessity, but say that he sent the soul voluntarily. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 27 (CSEL 25:109; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-27). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 28 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-28 - Source: CSEL 25:109–110 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine has Fortunatus's words read back and argues that a voluntary sending would be cruel; Fortunatus retorts that the Catholic view makes God either ignorant or cruel in creating the soul. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Recita, quod supra dictum est. (et recitatum est: si autem necessitas fuit mittendi animam, merito est et uoluntas liberandi eam). AUG. dixit: Audiuimus [si autem necessitas fuit mittendi animam. merito est et uoluntas liberandi eam]. Tu ergo dixisti fuisse necessitatem mittendi animam. sed si modo uoluntatem uis dicere, et hoc addo: cui noceri nihil poterat. crudelis uoluntas fuerat mittendi animam ad tantas miserias. quod refellendi causa quia loquor, ueniam peto ab illius unius misericordia, in quo spem liberationis habemus ab omnibus erroribus haereticorum. FORT. dixit: Nos dicere adseueras crudelem esse deum mittendo animam; fecisse deum uero hominem et insufflasse in eum animam; quam utique pro sua scientia animam futuram inuolui et beneficio malorum non posse hereditati suae repraesentari. hoc aut ignorantis est aut dantis animam ad haec mala, quae supra memorata sunt. id commemoraui, quia dixisti - ante tempus non multum - quod adoptauerit sibi deus animam, non quod ab ipso sit; aliud est enim adoptare. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Read back what was said above. (And it was read back: “But if there was a necessity of sending the soul, there is rightly also a will to free it.”) Augustine said: We have heard. So you said that there was a necessity of sending the soul. But if you now wish to speak of will, I add this too: for one whom nothing could harm, the will to send the soul into such great miseries was cruel. And because I say this in order to refute it, I ask pardon from the mercy of him alone in whom we have hope of deliverance from all the errors of heretics. Fortunatus said: You keep asserting that we say God is cruel in sending the soul. Yet you say that God made man and breathed a soul into him, a soul which he surely, by his knowledge, knew would be entangled, and would be unable, by the 'benefit' of evils, to be presented again to its inheritance. This is the act either of one who is ignorant or of one who gives the soul over to these evils mentioned above. I mention this because you said, not long ago, that God adopted the soul for himself, not that it is from him; for to adopt is something else. ### Scripture references - Gen 2:7: allusion, high confidence ### Translation notes - After 'We have heard' the editor deletes a repetition of the quoted words. Fortunatus alludes to Gen 2:7. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 28 (CSEL 25:109–110; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-28). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 29 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-29 - Source: CSEL 25:110 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine defers the question of adoption; Fortunatus says the soul went forth against a contrary nature that could not harm God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: De adoptione nostra memini me ante dies dixisse secundum testimonium apostoli, qui dicit nos uocatos in adoptionem filiorum. non ergo meum fuit illud, sed apostolicum responsum. de qua re, id est de ista adoptione suo tempore, si placet, inquiramus; et de illa insibilatione respondebo, cum tu meis obiectionibus responderis. FORT. dixit: Progressum dico fuisse animae contra contrariam naturam, quae natura deo nihil nocere poterat. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: About our adoption, I remember saying some days ago, according to the testimony of the apostle, who says that we have been called into the adoption of sons, that this was not my answer but the apostle's. About that matter, that is, about this adoption, let us inquire in its own time, if you please; and about that breathing-in I will answer when you have answered my objections. Fortunatus said: I say that the soul went forth against the contrary nature, a nature which could do no harm to God. ### Scripture references - Rom 8:15: allusion, medium confidence - Gal 4:5: allusion, medium confidence ### Translation notes - Adoption: Rom 8:15; Gal 4:5. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 29 (CSEL 25:110; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-29). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 30 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-30 - Source: CSEL 25:110 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine asks what need there was for the soul's going forth; Fortunatus asks whether Christ came from God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Quid opus erat isto progressu, ubi nihil habebat deus, quod caueret, cui noceri nihil poterat? FORT. dixit: Constat apud conscientiam nostram a deo uenisse Christum? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: What need was there for this going forth, when God, whom nothing could harm, had nothing to guard against? Fortunatus said: Is it agreed in our conscience that Christ came from God? ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 30 (CSEL 25:110; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-30). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 31 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-31 - Source: CSEL 25:110–111 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus says Christ came by the will of God. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Iterum me interrogas. ad interrogata responde. FORT. dixit: Sic accepi in fide, quod uoluntate dei ipse huc uenerit. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Again you question me. Answer what you are asked. Fortunatus said: So I have received in faith, that he came here by the will of God. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 31 (CSEL 25:110–111; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-31). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 32 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-32 - Source: CSEL 25:111 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus cites John 10:18 as showing that the soul went forth by God's will. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Et ego dico: deus omnipotens, inuiolabilis, incommutabilis, cui noceri nihil possit, quare huc animam ad miserias, ad errorem, ad ista, quae patimur, misit? FORT. dixit: Dictum est enim: potestatem habeo ponendi animam meam et potestatem accipiendi eam, non dixit, quod uoluntate dei progressa est anima. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: And I say: God almighty, inviolable, unchangeable, whom nothing can harm, why did he send the soul here, to miseries, to error, to these things we suffer? Fortunatus said: For it has been said, “I have power to lay down my soul and power to take it up.” Did he not say that the soul went forth by the will of God? ### Scripture references - John 10:18: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - Anima means both 'soul' and 'life'; Fortunatus applies the saying to the soul. His last sentence (non dixit ...) may also be read as a statement; NPNF takes it as 'He said that ...'. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 32 (CSEL 25:111; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-32). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 33 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-33 - Source: CSEL 25:111 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Fortunatus says the soul was sent to impose a measure on the contrary nature and will be taken back, reading John 10:18 of our souls. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Ego autem causam quaero, cum deo noceri nihil possit. FORT. dixit: Nihil noceri deo iam diximus, et in contraria natura esse animam diximus, ideo ut contrariae naturae modum inponeret; modo inposito contrariae naturae sumit eandem deus. ipse enim dixit: potestatem habeo ponendi animam meam et potestatem sumendi eam. hanc mihi pater dedit potestatem ponendi animam meam et sumendi eam. deus ergo, qui loquebatur in filio, de qua anima diceret? constat esse animam nostram, quae in his corporibus habetur, quod dei uoluntate uenerit et de uoluntate ipsius iterum adsumatur. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: But I ask the cause, since nothing can harm God. Fortunatus said: We have already said that nothing harms God, and we have said that the soul is in the contrary nature in order to impose a measure on the contrary nature; once the measure has been imposed on the contrary nature, God takes the soul back. For he himself said: “I have power to lay down my soul and power to take it up. This power the Father gave me, to lay down my soul and to take it up.” God, then, who spoke in the Son: of what soul was he speaking? It is evident that it is our soul, which is in these bodies, that came by the will of God and is taken back again by his will. ### Scripture references - John 10:18: quotation, high confidence ### Translation notes - Fortunatus's reading of John 10:18 as spoken of human souls is translated as he gives it. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 33 (CSEL 25:111; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-33). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 34 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-34 - Source: CSEL 25:111 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine refers John 10:18 to Christ's passion and resurrection; Fortunatus repeats that souls were sent to impose a measure on the contrary nature. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Unde dixerit dominus noster "potestatem habeo ponendi animam meam et potestatem habeo sumendi eam" omnibus notum est, quia passurus erat et resurrecturus. ego autem abs te iterum atque iterum quaero: si deo noceri nihil poterat, cur huc animas misit? FORT. dixit: Naturae contrariae modum inponere. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: Why our Lord said, “I have power to lay down my soul and I have power to take it up,” is known to all: because he was going to suffer and rise again. But I ask you again and again: if nothing could harm God, why did he send souls here? Fortunatus said: To impose a measure on the contrary nature. ### Scripture references - John 10:18: quotation, high confidence ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 34 (CSEL 25:111; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-34). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 35 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-35 - Source: CSEL 25:111–112 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine objects that bringing the contrary nature within measure made souls immoderate; Fortunatus answers that God calls them back. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Et omnipotens deus et omnium misericordissimus, ut modum inponeret naturae contrariae. ideo illam moderatam esse uoluit, ut nos inmoderatos efficeret? FORT. dixit: Sed ideo ad se reuocat. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: So almighty God, the most merciful of all, in order to impose a measure on the contrary nature, willed that it be brought within measure for this purpose, that he might make us immoderate? Fortunatus said: But for that reason he calls the soul back to himself. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 35 (CSEL 25:111–112; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-35). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 36 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-36 - Source: CSEL 25:112 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine asks why souls must suffer so long if God could not be harmed, and Fortunatus has no answer. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Si ad se reuocat ab inmoderatione, si a peccato, ab errore. a miseria, quid opus erat tanta mala animam pati per tantum tempus, donec mundus finiatur, cum deo, a quo eam dicitis missam, noceri nihil possit? FORT. dixit. Quid ergo dicturus sum? ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: If he calls it back to himself from immoderation, from sin, from error, from misery, what need was there for the soul to suffer such great evils for so long a time, until the world is ended, when God, by whom you say it was sent, can be harmed by nothing? Fortunatus said: What, then, am I to say? ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 36 (CSEL 25:112; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-36). ## Acts of the Debate with Fortunatus the Manichaean 37 - URL: https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-37 - Source: CSEL 25:112 - Translation: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), 2026-09-27 Summary: Augustine says this unanswered question led him out of Manichaeism; Fortunatus promises to consult his superiors and, if they cannot answer, to consider the catholic faith. ### Latin text AUG. dixit: Et ego noui non te habere, quid dicas, et me cum uos audirem in hac quaestione numquam inuenisse. quod dicerem, et inde fuisse admonitum diuinitus. ut illum errorem relinquerem et ad fidem catholicam me conuerterem uel potius reuocarem ipsius indulgentia. qui me huic fallaciae semper inhaerere non siuit. sed si confiteris te non habere. quod respondeas, omnibus audientibus et recognoscentibus, quoniam fideles sunt. catholicam fidem, si permittunt et uolunt, exponam. FORT. dixit: Sine praeiudicio professionis meae dixerim: illa quae a te obponuntur cum retractauero cum meis maioribus. si minus responderint interrogationi huic meae, quae similiter a te nunc mihi offertur, erit in mea contemplatione — quia et ego animam meam cupio certa fide liberari — uenire ad huius rei inquisitionem. quae a te mihi offertur et ostensurum te polliceris. AUG. dixit: Deo gratias. ### English translation (Claude) Augustine said: And I know that you have nothing to say, and that when I used to listen to you I never found anything to say on this question, and that I was thereby admonished by God to leave that error and to turn, or rather to return, to the catholic faith, by the kindness of him who did not allow me to cling to this deception for ever. But if you confess that you have nothing to answer, I will set out the catholic faith to all who are listening and recognizing it, since they are believers, if they permit and wish it. Fortunatus said: Without prejudice to my profession, let me say this: when I have gone over the objections you raise with my superiors, if they do not answer this question of mine, which you now likewise put to me, I will consider (since I too desire my soul to be freed by a sure faith) coming to an inquiry into this matter, which you offer me and promise you will show. Augustine said: Thanks be to God. ### Translation notes - 'My superiors' (maioribus) are the higher ranks of the Manichaean hierarchy. ### Citation (SBL) Augustine, Fort. 37 (CSEL 25:112; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-contra-fortunatum/21/#p-37).